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Cardinalities in English language



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InIs “How and why child is become criminal” proper English?“Any English I have learned” vs. “All the English I have learned”Can I use “any” with singular noun in formal English?Determiners and Plurality in literatureIs “the” needed with the word “code” used in a general programming sense?Possible “rule” for uncountable nounsPolish (the substance, not the language)What word means 'discrete piece of knowledge'?Why do definite articles seem implicit in English?Using “some” to describe units of time



.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








0















I recently learned about the notions of countable and uncountable noun in English language. I understand that "How many integers are there?" is a gramatically correct sentence. However, is the sentence "How many real numbers are there?" grammatically incorrect? I think it should be since there are uncountably many real numbers. Also, if we assume that the continuum hypothesis is false, then what is the appropriate determiner for the intermediate cardinal? Is it "many", "much", or another word?










share|improve this question







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  • 3





    "How many paragraphs are there in a potato?" is perfectly grammatical, even though it's nonsense.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago











  • You can count real numbers in limited sets. For instance it is meaningful to ask "how many non-integer square roots of natural numbers less than ten are there? (I make it five). Just because you can't count all the occurrences of something doesn't make its noun uncountable.

    – BoldBen
    1 hour ago

















0















I recently learned about the notions of countable and uncountable noun in English language. I understand that "How many integers are there?" is a gramatically correct sentence. However, is the sentence "How many real numbers are there?" grammatically incorrect? I think it should be since there are uncountably many real numbers. Also, if we assume that the continuum hypothesis is false, then what is the appropriate determiner for the intermediate cardinal? Is it "many", "much", or another word?










share|improve this question







New contributor




set_theorist_learning_english is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 3





    "How many paragraphs are there in a potato?" is perfectly grammatical, even though it's nonsense.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago











  • You can count real numbers in limited sets. For instance it is meaningful to ask "how many non-integer square roots of natural numbers less than ten are there? (I make it five). Just because you can't count all the occurrences of something doesn't make its noun uncountable.

    – BoldBen
    1 hour ago













0












0








0








I recently learned about the notions of countable and uncountable noun in English language. I understand that "How many integers are there?" is a gramatically correct sentence. However, is the sentence "How many real numbers are there?" grammatically incorrect? I think it should be since there are uncountably many real numbers. Also, if we assume that the continuum hypothesis is false, then what is the appropriate determiner for the intermediate cardinal? Is it "many", "much", or another word?










share|improve this question







New contributor




set_theorist_learning_english is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












I recently learned about the notions of countable and uncountable noun in English language. I understand that "How many integers are there?" is a gramatically correct sentence. However, is the sentence "How many real numbers are there?" grammatically incorrect? I think it should be since there are uncountably many real numbers. Also, if we assume that the continuum hypothesis is false, then what is the appropriate determiner for the intermediate cardinal? Is it "many", "much", or another word?







uncountable-nouns determiners






share|improve this question







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Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question







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asked 5 hours ago









set_theorist_learning_englishset_theorist_learning_english

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6




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  • 3





    "How many paragraphs are there in a potato?" is perfectly grammatical, even though it's nonsense.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago











  • You can count real numbers in limited sets. For instance it is meaningful to ask "how many non-integer square roots of natural numbers less than ten are there? (I make it five). Just because you can't count all the occurrences of something doesn't make its noun uncountable.

    – BoldBen
    1 hour ago












  • 3





    "How many paragraphs are there in a potato?" is perfectly grammatical, even though it's nonsense.

    – Hot Licks
    4 hours ago











  • You can count real numbers in limited sets. For instance it is meaningful to ask "how many non-integer square roots of natural numbers less than ten are there? (I make it five). Just because you can't count all the occurrences of something doesn't make its noun uncountable.

    – BoldBen
    1 hour ago







3




3





"How many paragraphs are there in a potato?" is perfectly grammatical, even though it's nonsense.

– Hot Licks
4 hours ago





"How many paragraphs are there in a potato?" is perfectly grammatical, even though it's nonsense.

– Hot Licks
4 hours ago













You can count real numbers in limited sets. For instance it is meaningful to ask "how many non-integer square roots of natural numbers less than ten are there? (I make it five). Just because you can't count all the occurrences of something doesn't make its noun uncountable.

– BoldBen
1 hour ago





You can count real numbers in limited sets. For instance it is meaningful to ask "how many non-integer square roots of natural numbers less than ten are there? (I make it five). Just because you can't count all the occurrences of something doesn't make its noun uncountable.

– BoldBen
1 hour ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















4














You are confusing grammar and semantics. You are also confusing the idea of a question having an unusual answer with it being an invalid question.



Just because the answer to the question "How many real numbers are there?" is "An uncountably infinite number" doesn't mean it's an invalid question, still less that it is ungrammatical.



A mathematician would say that the question is a useful one, as he might want to distinguish between the different types of infinity.



Other questions that are perfectly grammatical, if lacking a useful answer, might include "What colour is the wind?" and "How do your colourless green ideas sleep?" (The answer being "Furiously.")



You may also be confusing the idea of an "uncountable" noun with an "uncountable infinity". An uncountable noun is one where you cannot enumerate the noun at all. In mathematical terms it's more akin to the difference between "continuous" and "discrete". I cannot count "water" at all, so I say "How much water?". I can count some real numbers. For example I can say, "I have written two real numbers down". So I say "How many real numbers"






share|improve this answer

























  • You can count waters, though, especially in poetry.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    3 hours ago











  • A lot of mathematicians dislike the term "(un)countable" for this very reason, preferring "(non) denumerable".

    – Spencer
    3 hours ago











  • 'water' can be both countable and uncountable, but I'm trying to ignore that for this example.

    – DJClayworth
    3 hours ago


















1














There are three issues here.



The first is that you cannot base the grammar of the question on the answer which you do not yet know. You cannot say




It should be "How many are there?" if the answer is plural and "How many is there?" if the answer is singular.




That is just not possible. Each language has to have a convention about the grammatical number of How many that does not depend on the answer. In English we treat it as plural. In Scots Gaelic it is treated as singular. But either way it is just a convention, since we have to use some grammatical number before we know the answer.



The second issue is that countable means different things in grammar and mathematics. In mathematics, countable means you can put them in order to at least start the process of counting them all. Whereas in grammar, countable means that you can count even some of them. If you can say you have two hands, one head and no tail then you have counted some of the appendages that exist in the world, without even considering if it possible to count them all.



But the third, and most fundamental point is that even our modern grammar is based on an understanding of the world that predates any human concept of any number other than the so-called natural numbers (1, 2, 3 etc.) and was beginning to take shape when we were beginning to contrast "one" and "more than one". (Think about it - how could you tell someone there was more than one of something before the necessary language had been invented.) This means that it is not a reasonable assumption that existing grammar rules cover non-natural numbers. This is why people still argue about questions like "Is 0 singular or plural?", "Is -2 singular or plural? "Is 1/2 singular or plural?, "Is 1+i singular or plural?". These are questions that cannot be answered by logic or historical use because these numbers were invented after grammatical number.






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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    4














    You are confusing grammar and semantics. You are also confusing the idea of a question having an unusual answer with it being an invalid question.



    Just because the answer to the question "How many real numbers are there?" is "An uncountably infinite number" doesn't mean it's an invalid question, still less that it is ungrammatical.



    A mathematician would say that the question is a useful one, as he might want to distinguish between the different types of infinity.



    Other questions that are perfectly grammatical, if lacking a useful answer, might include "What colour is the wind?" and "How do your colourless green ideas sleep?" (The answer being "Furiously.")



    You may also be confusing the idea of an "uncountable" noun with an "uncountable infinity". An uncountable noun is one where you cannot enumerate the noun at all. In mathematical terms it's more akin to the difference between "continuous" and "discrete". I cannot count "water" at all, so I say "How much water?". I can count some real numbers. For example I can say, "I have written two real numbers down". So I say "How many real numbers"






    share|improve this answer

























    • You can count waters, though, especially in poetry.

      – Janus Bahs Jacquet
      3 hours ago











    • A lot of mathematicians dislike the term "(un)countable" for this very reason, preferring "(non) denumerable".

      – Spencer
      3 hours ago











    • 'water' can be both countable and uncountable, but I'm trying to ignore that for this example.

      – DJClayworth
      3 hours ago















    4














    You are confusing grammar and semantics. You are also confusing the idea of a question having an unusual answer with it being an invalid question.



    Just because the answer to the question "How many real numbers are there?" is "An uncountably infinite number" doesn't mean it's an invalid question, still less that it is ungrammatical.



    A mathematician would say that the question is a useful one, as he might want to distinguish between the different types of infinity.



    Other questions that are perfectly grammatical, if lacking a useful answer, might include "What colour is the wind?" and "How do your colourless green ideas sleep?" (The answer being "Furiously.")



    You may also be confusing the idea of an "uncountable" noun with an "uncountable infinity". An uncountable noun is one where you cannot enumerate the noun at all. In mathematical terms it's more akin to the difference between "continuous" and "discrete". I cannot count "water" at all, so I say "How much water?". I can count some real numbers. For example I can say, "I have written two real numbers down". So I say "How many real numbers"






    share|improve this answer

























    • You can count waters, though, especially in poetry.

      – Janus Bahs Jacquet
      3 hours ago











    • A lot of mathematicians dislike the term "(un)countable" for this very reason, preferring "(non) denumerable".

      – Spencer
      3 hours ago











    • 'water' can be both countable and uncountable, but I'm trying to ignore that for this example.

      – DJClayworth
      3 hours ago













    4












    4








    4







    You are confusing grammar and semantics. You are also confusing the idea of a question having an unusual answer with it being an invalid question.



    Just because the answer to the question "How many real numbers are there?" is "An uncountably infinite number" doesn't mean it's an invalid question, still less that it is ungrammatical.



    A mathematician would say that the question is a useful one, as he might want to distinguish between the different types of infinity.



    Other questions that are perfectly grammatical, if lacking a useful answer, might include "What colour is the wind?" and "How do your colourless green ideas sleep?" (The answer being "Furiously.")



    You may also be confusing the idea of an "uncountable" noun with an "uncountable infinity". An uncountable noun is one where you cannot enumerate the noun at all. In mathematical terms it's more akin to the difference between "continuous" and "discrete". I cannot count "water" at all, so I say "How much water?". I can count some real numbers. For example I can say, "I have written two real numbers down". So I say "How many real numbers"






    share|improve this answer















    You are confusing grammar and semantics. You are also confusing the idea of a question having an unusual answer with it being an invalid question.



    Just because the answer to the question "How many real numbers are there?" is "An uncountably infinite number" doesn't mean it's an invalid question, still less that it is ungrammatical.



    A mathematician would say that the question is a useful one, as he might want to distinguish between the different types of infinity.



    Other questions that are perfectly grammatical, if lacking a useful answer, might include "What colour is the wind?" and "How do your colourless green ideas sleep?" (The answer being "Furiously.")



    You may also be confusing the idea of an "uncountable" noun with an "uncountable infinity". An uncountable noun is one where you cannot enumerate the noun at all. In mathematical terms it's more akin to the difference between "continuous" and "discrete". I cannot count "water" at all, so I say "How much water?". I can count some real numbers. For example I can say, "I have written two real numbers down". So I say "How many real numbers"







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 5 hours ago

























    answered 5 hours ago









    DJClayworthDJClayworth

    11.4k12536




    11.4k12536












    • You can count waters, though, especially in poetry.

      – Janus Bahs Jacquet
      3 hours ago











    • A lot of mathematicians dislike the term "(un)countable" for this very reason, preferring "(non) denumerable".

      – Spencer
      3 hours ago











    • 'water' can be both countable and uncountable, but I'm trying to ignore that for this example.

      – DJClayworth
      3 hours ago

















    • You can count waters, though, especially in poetry.

      – Janus Bahs Jacquet
      3 hours ago











    • A lot of mathematicians dislike the term "(un)countable" for this very reason, preferring "(non) denumerable".

      – Spencer
      3 hours ago











    • 'water' can be both countable and uncountable, but I'm trying to ignore that for this example.

      – DJClayworth
      3 hours ago
















    You can count waters, though, especially in poetry.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    3 hours ago





    You can count waters, though, especially in poetry.

    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    3 hours ago













    A lot of mathematicians dislike the term "(un)countable" for this very reason, preferring "(non) denumerable".

    – Spencer
    3 hours ago





    A lot of mathematicians dislike the term "(un)countable" for this very reason, preferring "(non) denumerable".

    – Spencer
    3 hours ago













    'water' can be both countable and uncountable, but I'm trying to ignore that for this example.

    – DJClayworth
    3 hours ago





    'water' can be both countable and uncountable, but I'm trying to ignore that for this example.

    – DJClayworth
    3 hours ago













    1














    There are three issues here.



    The first is that you cannot base the grammar of the question on the answer which you do not yet know. You cannot say




    It should be "How many are there?" if the answer is plural and "How many is there?" if the answer is singular.




    That is just not possible. Each language has to have a convention about the grammatical number of How many that does not depend on the answer. In English we treat it as plural. In Scots Gaelic it is treated as singular. But either way it is just a convention, since we have to use some grammatical number before we know the answer.



    The second issue is that countable means different things in grammar and mathematics. In mathematics, countable means you can put them in order to at least start the process of counting them all. Whereas in grammar, countable means that you can count even some of them. If you can say you have two hands, one head and no tail then you have counted some of the appendages that exist in the world, without even considering if it possible to count them all.



    But the third, and most fundamental point is that even our modern grammar is based on an understanding of the world that predates any human concept of any number other than the so-called natural numbers (1, 2, 3 etc.) and was beginning to take shape when we were beginning to contrast "one" and "more than one". (Think about it - how could you tell someone there was more than one of something before the necessary language had been invented.) This means that it is not a reasonable assumption that existing grammar rules cover non-natural numbers. This is why people still argue about questions like "Is 0 singular or plural?", "Is -2 singular or plural? "Is 1/2 singular or plural?, "Is 1+i singular or plural?". These are questions that cannot be answered by logic or historical use because these numbers were invented after grammatical number.






    share|improve this answer



























      1














      There are three issues here.



      The first is that you cannot base the grammar of the question on the answer which you do not yet know. You cannot say




      It should be "How many are there?" if the answer is plural and "How many is there?" if the answer is singular.




      That is just not possible. Each language has to have a convention about the grammatical number of How many that does not depend on the answer. In English we treat it as plural. In Scots Gaelic it is treated as singular. But either way it is just a convention, since we have to use some grammatical number before we know the answer.



      The second issue is that countable means different things in grammar and mathematics. In mathematics, countable means you can put them in order to at least start the process of counting them all. Whereas in grammar, countable means that you can count even some of them. If you can say you have two hands, one head and no tail then you have counted some of the appendages that exist in the world, without even considering if it possible to count them all.



      But the third, and most fundamental point is that even our modern grammar is based on an understanding of the world that predates any human concept of any number other than the so-called natural numbers (1, 2, 3 etc.) and was beginning to take shape when we were beginning to contrast "one" and "more than one". (Think about it - how could you tell someone there was more than one of something before the necessary language had been invented.) This means that it is not a reasonable assumption that existing grammar rules cover non-natural numbers. This is why people still argue about questions like "Is 0 singular or plural?", "Is -2 singular or plural? "Is 1/2 singular or plural?, "Is 1+i singular or plural?". These are questions that cannot be answered by logic or historical use because these numbers were invented after grammatical number.






      share|improve this answer

























        1












        1








        1







        There are three issues here.



        The first is that you cannot base the grammar of the question on the answer which you do not yet know. You cannot say




        It should be "How many are there?" if the answer is plural and "How many is there?" if the answer is singular.




        That is just not possible. Each language has to have a convention about the grammatical number of How many that does not depend on the answer. In English we treat it as plural. In Scots Gaelic it is treated as singular. But either way it is just a convention, since we have to use some grammatical number before we know the answer.



        The second issue is that countable means different things in grammar and mathematics. In mathematics, countable means you can put them in order to at least start the process of counting them all. Whereas in grammar, countable means that you can count even some of them. If you can say you have two hands, one head and no tail then you have counted some of the appendages that exist in the world, without even considering if it possible to count them all.



        But the third, and most fundamental point is that even our modern grammar is based on an understanding of the world that predates any human concept of any number other than the so-called natural numbers (1, 2, 3 etc.) and was beginning to take shape when we were beginning to contrast "one" and "more than one". (Think about it - how could you tell someone there was more than one of something before the necessary language had been invented.) This means that it is not a reasonable assumption that existing grammar rules cover non-natural numbers. This is why people still argue about questions like "Is 0 singular or plural?", "Is -2 singular or plural? "Is 1/2 singular or plural?, "Is 1+i singular or plural?". These are questions that cannot be answered by logic or historical use because these numbers were invented after grammatical number.






        share|improve this answer













        There are three issues here.



        The first is that you cannot base the grammar of the question on the answer which you do not yet know. You cannot say




        It should be "How many are there?" if the answer is plural and "How many is there?" if the answer is singular.




        That is just not possible. Each language has to have a convention about the grammatical number of How many that does not depend on the answer. In English we treat it as plural. In Scots Gaelic it is treated as singular. But either way it is just a convention, since we have to use some grammatical number before we know the answer.



        The second issue is that countable means different things in grammar and mathematics. In mathematics, countable means you can put them in order to at least start the process of counting them all. Whereas in grammar, countable means that you can count even some of them. If you can say you have two hands, one head and no tail then you have counted some of the appendages that exist in the world, without even considering if it possible to count them all.



        But the third, and most fundamental point is that even our modern grammar is based on an understanding of the world that predates any human concept of any number other than the so-called natural numbers (1, 2, 3 etc.) and was beginning to take shape when we were beginning to contrast "one" and "more than one". (Think about it - how could you tell someone there was more than one of something before the necessary language had been invented.) This means that it is not a reasonable assumption that existing grammar rules cover non-natural numbers. This is why people still argue about questions like "Is 0 singular or plural?", "Is -2 singular or plural? "Is 1/2 singular or plural?, "Is 1+i singular or plural?". These are questions that cannot be answered by logic or historical use because these numbers were invented after grammatical number.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 3 hours ago









        David RobinsonDavid Robinson

        2,742216




        2,742216




















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