How can the Zone of Truth spell be defeated without the caster knowing?Will zone of truth affect the dead?Does a spellcaster know when their spell has no effect due to a save or immunity?How does Mind Blank affect the Zone of Truth spell?Are targets that save against Zone of Truth aware of the spell?How many saves do you roll vs. Zone of Truth?Does the caster of an enchantment spell always know if the spell worked or failed?Is it OP to let Guardian of Faith attack every turn?Is this homebrew Bardic College balanced?Does the Fear spell work with an Oath of Conquest paladin's Aura of Conquest?How does the Antimagic Field spell affect the caster of a Zone of Truth's ability to know whether a target succeeded or failed the save?
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How can the Zone of Truth spell be defeated without the caster knowing?
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How can the Zone of Truth spell be defeated without the caster knowing?
Will zone of truth affect the dead?Does a spellcaster know when their spell has no effect due to a save or immunity?How does Mind Blank affect the Zone of Truth spell?Are targets that save against Zone of Truth aware of the spell?How many saves do you roll vs. Zone of Truth?Does the caster of an enchantment spell always know if the spell worked or failed?Is it OP to let Guardian of Faith attack every turn?Is this homebrew Bardic College balanced?Does the Fear spell work with an Oath of Conquest paladin's Aura of Conquest?How does the Antimagic Field spell affect the caster of a Zone of Truth's ability to know whether a target succeeded or failed the save?
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$begingroup$
The Zone of Truth spell contains the following clause:
You know whether each creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw.
In a scenario of checking someone's loyalty, any countermeasure that allows you to always succeed your save against this spell will alert the caster that you have succeeded the save. They will keep you in the area of the spell until you succeed, or until it's clear something is stopping you from failing - at which point the caster will tell you to remove whatever that effect is doing this, or have it assumed you are disloyal.
What are all the countermeasures to this spell which:
- don't allow the spell to affect you, and
- don't alert the caster you're unaffected?
Note that to fulfil (1), answers should avoid "you can lie by telling the truth in a ZoT". A competent interrogator will simply ask direct yes/no questions and assume disloyalty if they are not answered directly.
dnd-5e spells
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Zone of Truth spell contains the following clause:
You know whether each creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw.
In a scenario of checking someone's loyalty, any countermeasure that allows you to always succeed your save against this spell will alert the caster that you have succeeded the save. They will keep you in the area of the spell until you succeed, or until it's clear something is stopping you from failing - at which point the caster will tell you to remove whatever that effect is doing this, or have it assumed you are disloyal.
What are all the countermeasures to this spell which:
- don't allow the spell to affect you, and
- don't alert the caster you're unaffected?
Note that to fulfil (1), answers should avoid "you can lie by telling the truth in a ZoT". A competent interrogator will simply ask direct yes/no questions and assume disloyalty if they are not answered directly.
dnd-5e spells
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Is help from allies allowed?
$endgroup$
– Szega
3 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Zone of Truth spell contains the following clause:
You know whether each creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw.
In a scenario of checking someone's loyalty, any countermeasure that allows you to always succeed your save against this spell will alert the caster that you have succeeded the save. They will keep you in the area of the spell until you succeed, or until it's clear something is stopping you from failing - at which point the caster will tell you to remove whatever that effect is doing this, or have it assumed you are disloyal.
What are all the countermeasures to this spell which:
- don't allow the spell to affect you, and
- don't alert the caster you're unaffected?
Note that to fulfil (1), answers should avoid "you can lie by telling the truth in a ZoT". A competent interrogator will simply ask direct yes/no questions and assume disloyalty if they are not answered directly.
dnd-5e spells
$endgroup$
The Zone of Truth spell contains the following clause:
You know whether each creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw.
In a scenario of checking someone's loyalty, any countermeasure that allows you to always succeed your save against this spell will alert the caster that you have succeeded the save. They will keep you in the area of the spell until you succeed, or until it's clear something is stopping you from failing - at which point the caster will tell you to remove whatever that effect is doing this, or have it assumed you are disloyal.
What are all the countermeasures to this spell which:
- don't allow the spell to affect you, and
- don't alert the caster you're unaffected?
Note that to fulfil (1), answers should avoid "you can lie by telling the truth in a ZoT". A competent interrogator will simply ask direct yes/no questions and assume disloyalty if they are not answered directly.
dnd-5e spells
dnd-5e spells
edited 15 mins ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
28.1k5101171
asked 6 hours ago
VigilVigil
7,1383287
7,1383287
1
$begingroup$
Is help from allies allowed?
$endgroup$
– Szega
3 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Is help from allies allowed?
$endgroup$
– Szega
3 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Is help from allies allowed?
$endgroup$
– Szega
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is help from allies allowed?
$endgroup$
– Szega
3 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Mechanically, Zone of Truth can be defeated only by high-level features
As you say, any attempt to resist or evade the effects of Zone of Truth alerts the caster. And in the context of a loyalty test, avoiding the effect is synonymous with admitting disloyalty. The only exceptions to this are a handful of high-level features: the Mastermind Rogue's Soul of Deceit feature (as mentioned in Louis Wasserman's answer) defeats truth-detection magic, and the 8th level spell Glibness provides a similar ability:
[...] no matter what you say, magic that would determine if you are telling the truth indicates that you are being truthful.
Note that while Glibness causes Zone of Truth to read whatever you say as truthful, it doesn't necessarily protect you from being forced to tell the truth. If you intend to use it, you should ask your DM ahead of time how it will work with Zone of Truth to avoid arguments when it actually happens. (In contrast, Soul of Deceit explicitly says you can't be forced to tell the truth by magic, so there is no ambiguity there.)
In any case, unless you have access to features or spells available around 15th-17th level, you'll have to make it through your loyalty test by telling what your character believes to be the truth.
Believe your lies
However, there is at least one small and difficult-to-exploit loophole that doesn't require any powerful abilities: Zone of Truth only prevents a creature from speaking a deliberate lie. If you can manage to believe your lies, you will be able to speak those lies while under the effect of Zone of Truth. For example, if the loyalty question is something like "Are you loyal to the Empire?", then you would be able to answer with a simple "yes" even if you were plotting to assassinate the emperor, as long as you truly and honestly believed that doing so would help the Empire. Obviously, this is a very situational workaround, but I want to emphasize that this is materially different from being evasive or "lying with the truth". This is a case where you give exactly the truthful answer that is expected of you, but for a completely different reason (while praying that you are never asked to elaborate on that reason).
In practice, when you as a player attempt to use this, you should probably expect some push-back from your DM, asking if your character really believes this. This "loophole" has a heavy character focus rather than a mechanical focus, so if you are planning to do this, be prepared with a solidly fleshed-out backstory to justify your honesty. And of course, be willing to accept that a slightly different question might reveal that your interpretation of loyalty differs from that of your interrogators. In the above example, you would not fare well if you were instead asked "Are you loyal to the emperor?"
Unfortunately, I don't have any experience to share of using this "loophole" in an actual game. I'm just pointing out that it's the only loophole I can think of.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
I am loyal to the emperor. That's why he must die — he is hurting his own soul by corrupting the path of the gods. As a true patriot I will do whatever it takes to save him from that....
$endgroup$
– mattdm
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is also why compartmentalizing information, and selective lies, to your subordinates can be quite effective: fool them well, and they may truly believe in being loyal to some ideals/persons/..., even as they work against them.
$endgroup$
– Matthieu M.
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Modify Memory
Depending on the circumstances and the precise information you need to keep secret, you may able to effectively defeat a Zone of Truth by having your memory modified in advance by an ally using the Modify Memory spell. Affected creatures in a Zone of Truth cannot deliberately lie, but that doesn't mean that whatever they believe to be true actually is. After interrogation, someone surreptitiously casts Remove Curse or Greater Restoration on you and your original memory returns, at which point you presumably mutter "keikaku1 doori".
Given the restrictions of Modify Memory this works best for concealing knowledge of specific events; the longer ago the events are or the more material you have to cover, the technique swiftly becomes impractical.
This doesn't strictly meet your constraints since it requires you to actually be affected by Zone of Truth and does not conceal that from the caster, but I am not sure there actually is a reliable way to render oneself immune to the spell without tipping off or having to compromise the caster. Either they know you're passing your saves, or by lack of information they know you're not even making saves and therefore aren't affected.
1. keikaku means plan
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I agree that Modify Memory is a potential solution in general. However, in the specific context of a loyalty test, I think that Modify Memory is particularly unsuitable, since "A modified memory doesn't necessarily affect how a creature behaves, particularly if the memory contradicts the creature's natural inclinations, alignment, or beliefs. An illogical modified memory [...] is dismissed, perhaps as a bad dream." There's also the problem that if someone successfully uses Modify Memory to genuinely flip your loyalties, they will also need to restore your memory later.
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Now that I think about it, if there's only one interrogator, a better way to use Modify Memory might be to cast it on the interrogator during the interrogation (make sure they use their spell slot on ZoT first, though, or they might spot the inconsistency).
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RyanThompson: Unless you're a sorcerer with Subtle Spell multiclassed into one of the spells that can cast modify memory, you casting the spell will probably be noticed pretty easily... Plus I imagine most interrogations aren't one-on-one anyway. (Nice Death Note reference, Carcer :P )
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
14 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Mastermind archetype for the Rogue class from Xanathar's Guide to Everything has a class feature, Soul of Deceit, which is explicitly about defeating truth magic: it says that you can't be compelled to tell the truth by magic and that magic that determines if you're telling the truth says you are.
This isn't succeeding on the save; it doesn't say anything about a saving throw. I would read the effects as that you make the saving throw as normal, but can ignore the results and lie as you like.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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active
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
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$begingroup$
Mechanically, Zone of Truth can be defeated only by high-level features
As you say, any attempt to resist or evade the effects of Zone of Truth alerts the caster. And in the context of a loyalty test, avoiding the effect is synonymous with admitting disloyalty. The only exceptions to this are a handful of high-level features: the Mastermind Rogue's Soul of Deceit feature (as mentioned in Louis Wasserman's answer) defeats truth-detection magic, and the 8th level spell Glibness provides a similar ability:
[...] no matter what you say, magic that would determine if you are telling the truth indicates that you are being truthful.
Note that while Glibness causes Zone of Truth to read whatever you say as truthful, it doesn't necessarily protect you from being forced to tell the truth. If you intend to use it, you should ask your DM ahead of time how it will work with Zone of Truth to avoid arguments when it actually happens. (In contrast, Soul of Deceit explicitly says you can't be forced to tell the truth by magic, so there is no ambiguity there.)
In any case, unless you have access to features or spells available around 15th-17th level, you'll have to make it through your loyalty test by telling what your character believes to be the truth.
Believe your lies
However, there is at least one small and difficult-to-exploit loophole that doesn't require any powerful abilities: Zone of Truth only prevents a creature from speaking a deliberate lie. If you can manage to believe your lies, you will be able to speak those lies while under the effect of Zone of Truth. For example, if the loyalty question is something like "Are you loyal to the Empire?", then you would be able to answer with a simple "yes" even if you were plotting to assassinate the emperor, as long as you truly and honestly believed that doing so would help the Empire. Obviously, this is a very situational workaround, but I want to emphasize that this is materially different from being evasive or "lying with the truth". This is a case where you give exactly the truthful answer that is expected of you, but for a completely different reason (while praying that you are never asked to elaborate on that reason).
In practice, when you as a player attempt to use this, you should probably expect some push-back from your DM, asking if your character really believes this. This "loophole" has a heavy character focus rather than a mechanical focus, so if you are planning to do this, be prepared with a solidly fleshed-out backstory to justify your honesty. And of course, be willing to accept that a slightly different question might reveal that your interpretation of loyalty differs from that of your interrogators. In the above example, you would not fare well if you were instead asked "Are you loyal to the emperor?"
Unfortunately, I don't have any experience to share of using this "loophole" in an actual game. I'm just pointing out that it's the only loophole I can think of.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
I am loyal to the emperor. That's why he must die — he is hurting his own soul by corrupting the path of the gods. As a true patriot I will do whatever it takes to save him from that....
$endgroup$
– mattdm
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is also why compartmentalizing information, and selective lies, to your subordinates can be quite effective: fool them well, and they may truly believe in being loyal to some ideals/persons/..., even as they work against them.
$endgroup$
– Matthieu M.
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Mechanically, Zone of Truth can be defeated only by high-level features
As you say, any attempt to resist or evade the effects of Zone of Truth alerts the caster. And in the context of a loyalty test, avoiding the effect is synonymous with admitting disloyalty. The only exceptions to this are a handful of high-level features: the Mastermind Rogue's Soul of Deceit feature (as mentioned in Louis Wasserman's answer) defeats truth-detection magic, and the 8th level spell Glibness provides a similar ability:
[...] no matter what you say, magic that would determine if you are telling the truth indicates that you are being truthful.
Note that while Glibness causes Zone of Truth to read whatever you say as truthful, it doesn't necessarily protect you from being forced to tell the truth. If you intend to use it, you should ask your DM ahead of time how it will work with Zone of Truth to avoid arguments when it actually happens. (In contrast, Soul of Deceit explicitly says you can't be forced to tell the truth by magic, so there is no ambiguity there.)
In any case, unless you have access to features or spells available around 15th-17th level, you'll have to make it through your loyalty test by telling what your character believes to be the truth.
Believe your lies
However, there is at least one small and difficult-to-exploit loophole that doesn't require any powerful abilities: Zone of Truth only prevents a creature from speaking a deliberate lie. If you can manage to believe your lies, you will be able to speak those lies while under the effect of Zone of Truth. For example, if the loyalty question is something like "Are you loyal to the Empire?", then you would be able to answer with a simple "yes" even if you were plotting to assassinate the emperor, as long as you truly and honestly believed that doing so would help the Empire. Obviously, this is a very situational workaround, but I want to emphasize that this is materially different from being evasive or "lying with the truth". This is a case where you give exactly the truthful answer that is expected of you, but for a completely different reason (while praying that you are never asked to elaborate on that reason).
In practice, when you as a player attempt to use this, you should probably expect some push-back from your DM, asking if your character really believes this. This "loophole" has a heavy character focus rather than a mechanical focus, so if you are planning to do this, be prepared with a solidly fleshed-out backstory to justify your honesty. And of course, be willing to accept that a slightly different question might reveal that your interpretation of loyalty differs from that of your interrogators. In the above example, you would not fare well if you were instead asked "Are you loyal to the emperor?"
Unfortunately, I don't have any experience to share of using this "loophole" in an actual game. I'm just pointing out that it's the only loophole I can think of.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
I am loyal to the emperor. That's why he must die — he is hurting his own soul by corrupting the path of the gods. As a true patriot I will do whatever it takes to save him from that....
$endgroup$
– mattdm
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is also why compartmentalizing information, and selective lies, to your subordinates can be quite effective: fool them well, and they may truly believe in being loyal to some ideals/persons/..., even as they work against them.
$endgroup$
– Matthieu M.
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Mechanically, Zone of Truth can be defeated only by high-level features
As you say, any attempt to resist or evade the effects of Zone of Truth alerts the caster. And in the context of a loyalty test, avoiding the effect is synonymous with admitting disloyalty. The only exceptions to this are a handful of high-level features: the Mastermind Rogue's Soul of Deceit feature (as mentioned in Louis Wasserman's answer) defeats truth-detection magic, and the 8th level spell Glibness provides a similar ability:
[...] no matter what you say, magic that would determine if you are telling the truth indicates that you are being truthful.
Note that while Glibness causes Zone of Truth to read whatever you say as truthful, it doesn't necessarily protect you from being forced to tell the truth. If you intend to use it, you should ask your DM ahead of time how it will work with Zone of Truth to avoid arguments when it actually happens. (In contrast, Soul of Deceit explicitly says you can't be forced to tell the truth by magic, so there is no ambiguity there.)
In any case, unless you have access to features or spells available around 15th-17th level, you'll have to make it through your loyalty test by telling what your character believes to be the truth.
Believe your lies
However, there is at least one small and difficult-to-exploit loophole that doesn't require any powerful abilities: Zone of Truth only prevents a creature from speaking a deliberate lie. If you can manage to believe your lies, you will be able to speak those lies while under the effect of Zone of Truth. For example, if the loyalty question is something like "Are you loyal to the Empire?", then you would be able to answer with a simple "yes" even if you were plotting to assassinate the emperor, as long as you truly and honestly believed that doing so would help the Empire. Obviously, this is a very situational workaround, but I want to emphasize that this is materially different from being evasive or "lying with the truth". This is a case where you give exactly the truthful answer that is expected of you, but for a completely different reason (while praying that you are never asked to elaborate on that reason).
In practice, when you as a player attempt to use this, you should probably expect some push-back from your DM, asking if your character really believes this. This "loophole" has a heavy character focus rather than a mechanical focus, so if you are planning to do this, be prepared with a solidly fleshed-out backstory to justify your honesty. And of course, be willing to accept that a slightly different question might reveal that your interpretation of loyalty differs from that of your interrogators. In the above example, you would not fare well if you were instead asked "Are you loyal to the emperor?"
Unfortunately, I don't have any experience to share of using this "loophole" in an actual game. I'm just pointing out that it's the only loophole I can think of.
$endgroup$
Mechanically, Zone of Truth can be defeated only by high-level features
As you say, any attempt to resist or evade the effects of Zone of Truth alerts the caster. And in the context of a loyalty test, avoiding the effect is synonymous with admitting disloyalty. The only exceptions to this are a handful of high-level features: the Mastermind Rogue's Soul of Deceit feature (as mentioned in Louis Wasserman's answer) defeats truth-detection magic, and the 8th level spell Glibness provides a similar ability:
[...] no matter what you say, magic that would determine if you are telling the truth indicates that you are being truthful.
Note that while Glibness causes Zone of Truth to read whatever you say as truthful, it doesn't necessarily protect you from being forced to tell the truth. If you intend to use it, you should ask your DM ahead of time how it will work with Zone of Truth to avoid arguments when it actually happens. (In contrast, Soul of Deceit explicitly says you can't be forced to tell the truth by magic, so there is no ambiguity there.)
In any case, unless you have access to features or spells available around 15th-17th level, you'll have to make it through your loyalty test by telling what your character believes to be the truth.
Believe your lies
However, there is at least one small and difficult-to-exploit loophole that doesn't require any powerful abilities: Zone of Truth only prevents a creature from speaking a deliberate lie. If you can manage to believe your lies, you will be able to speak those lies while under the effect of Zone of Truth. For example, if the loyalty question is something like "Are you loyal to the Empire?", then you would be able to answer with a simple "yes" even if you were plotting to assassinate the emperor, as long as you truly and honestly believed that doing so would help the Empire. Obviously, this is a very situational workaround, but I want to emphasize that this is materially different from being evasive or "lying with the truth". This is a case where you give exactly the truthful answer that is expected of you, but for a completely different reason (while praying that you are never asked to elaborate on that reason).
In practice, when you as a player attempt to use this, you should probably expect some push-back from your DM, asking if your character really believes this. This "loophole" has a heavy character focus rather than a mechanical focus, so if you are planning to do this, be prepared with a solidly fleshed-out backstory to justify your honesty. And of course, be willing to accept that a slightly different question might reveal that your interpretation of loyalty differs from that of your interrogators. In the above example, you would not fare well if you were instead asked "Are you loyal to the emperor?"
Unfortunately, I don't have any experience to share of using this "loophole" in an actual game. I'm just pointing out that it's the only loophole I can think of.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 5 hours ago
Ryan ThompsonRyan Thompson
12.6k24395
12.6k24395
3
$begingroup$
I am loyal to the emperor. That's why he must die — he is hurting his own soul by corrupting the path of the gods. As a true patriot I will do whatever it takes to save him from that....
$endgroup$
– mattdm
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is also why compartmentalizing information, and selective lies, to your subordinates can be quite effective: fool them well, and they may truly believe in being loyal to some ideals/persons/..., even as they work against them.
$endgroup$
– Matthieu M.
1 hour ago
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
I am loyal to the emperor. That's why he must die — he is hurting his own soul by corrupting the path of the gods. As a true patriot I will do whatever it takes to save him from that....
$endgroup$
– mattdm
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is also why compartmentalizing information, and selective lies, to your subordinates can be quite effective: fool them well, and they may truly believe in being loyal to some ideals/persons/..., even as they work against them.
$endgroup$
– Matthieu M.
1 hour ago
3
3
$begingroup$
I am loyal to the emperor. That's why he must die — he is hurting his own soul by corrupting the path of the gods. As a true patriot I will do whatever it takes to save him from that....
$endgroup$
– mattdm
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am loyal to the emperor. That's why he must die — he is hurting his own soul by corrupting the path of the gods. As a true patriot I will do whatever it takes to save him from that....
$endgroup$
– mattdm
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is also why compartmentalizing information, and selective lies, to your subordinates can be quite effective: fool them well, and they may truly believe in being loyal to some ideals/persons/..., even as they work against them.
$endgroup$
– Matthieu M.
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
This is also why compartmentalizing information, and selective lies, to your subordinates can be quite effective: fool them well, and they may truly believe in being loyal to some ideals/persons/..., even as they work against them.
$endgroup$
– Matthieu M.
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Modify Memory
Depending on the circumstances and the precise information you need to keep secret, you may able to effectively defeat a Zone of Truth by having your memory modified in advance by an ally using the Modify Memory spell. Affected creatures in a Zone of Truth cannot deliberately lie, but that doesn't mean that whatever they believe to be true actually is. After interrogation, someone surreptitiously casts Remove Curse or Greater Restoration on you and your original memory returns, at which point you presumably mutter "keikaku1 doori".
Given the restrictions of Modify Memory this works best for concealing knowledge of specific events; the longer ago the events are or the more material you have to cover, the technique swiftly becomes impractical.
This doesn't strictly meet your constraints since it requires you to actually be affected by Zone of Truth and does not conceal that from the caster, but I am not sure there actually is a reliable way to render oneself immune to the spell without tipping off or having to compromise the caster. Either they know you're passing your saves, or by lack of information they know you're not even making saves and therefore aren't affected.
1. keikaku means plan
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I agree that Modify Memory is a potential solution in general. However, in the specific context of a loyalty test, I think that Modify Memory is particularly unsuitable, since "A modified memory doesn't necessarily affect how a creature behaves, particularly if the memory contradicts the creature's natural inclinations, alignment, or beliefs. An illogical modified memory [...] is dismissed, perhaps as a bad dream." There's also the problem that if someone successfully uses Modify Memory to genuinely flip your loyalties, they will also need to restore your memory later.
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Now that I think about it, if there's only one interrogator, a better way to use Modify Memory might be to cast it on the interrogator during the interrogation (make sure they use their spell slot on ZoT first, though, or they might spot the inconsistency).
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RyanThompson: Unless you're a sorcerer with Subtle Spell multiclassed into one of the spells that can cast modify memory, you casting the spell will probably be noticed pretty easily... Plus I imagine most interrogations aren't one-on-one anyway. (Nice Death Note reference, Carcer :P )
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
14 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Modify Memory
Depending on the circumstances and the precise information you need to keep secret, you may able to effectively defeat a Zone of Truth by having your memory modified in advance by an ally using the Modify Memory spell. Affected creatures in a Zone of Truth cannot deliberately lie, but that doesn't mean that whatever they believe to be true actually is. After interrogation, someone surreptitiously casts Remove Curse or Greater Restoration on you and your original memory returns, at which point you presumably mutter "keikaku1 doori".
Given the restrictions of Modify Memory this works best for concealing knowledge of specific events; the longer ago the events are or the more material you have to cover, the technique swiftly becomes impractical.
This doesn't strictly meet your constraints since it requires you to actually be affected by Zone of Truth and does not conceal that from the caster, but I am not sure there actually is a reliable way to render oneself immune to the spell without tipping off or having to compromise the caster. Either they know you're passing your saves, or by lack of information they know you're not even making saves and therefore aren't affected.
1. keikaku means plan
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I agree that Modify Memory is a potential solution in general. However, in the specific context of a loyalty test, I think that Modify Memory is particularly unsuitable, since "A modified memory doesn't necessarily affect how a creature behaves, particularly if the memory contradicts the creature's natural inclinations, alignment, or beliefs. An illogical modified memory [...] is dismissed, perhaps as a bad dream." There's also the problem that if someone successfully uses Modify Memory to genuinely flip your loyalties, they will also need to restore your memory later.
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Now that I think about it, if there's only one interrogator, a better way to use Modify Memory might be to cast it on the interrogator during the interrogation (make sure they use their spell slot on ZoT first, though, or they might spot the inconsistency).
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RyanThompson: Unless you're a sorcerer with Subtle Spell multiclassed into one of the spells that can cast modify memory, you casting the spell will probably be noticed pretty easily... Plus I imagine most interrogations aren't one-on-one anyway. (Nice Death Note reference, Carcer :P )
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
14 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Modify Memory
Depending on the circumstances and the precise information you need to keep secret, you may able to effectively defeat a Zone of Truth by having your memory modified in advance by an ally using the Modify Memory spell. Affected creatures in a Zone of Truth cannot deliberately lie, but that doesn't mean that whatever they believe to be true actually is. After interrogation, someone surreptitiously casts Remove Curse or Greater Restoration on you and your original memory returns, at which point you presumably mutter "keikaku1 doori".
Given the restrictions of Modify Memory this works best for concealing knowledge of specific events; the longer ago the events are or the more material you have to cover, the technique swiftly becomes impractical.
This doesn't strictly meet your constraints since it requires you to actually be affected by Zone of Truth and does not conceal that from the caster, but I am not sure there actually is a reliable way to render oneself immune to the spell without tipping off or having to compromise the caster. Either they know you're passing your saves, or by lack of information they know you're not even making saves and therefore aren't affected.
1. keikaku means plan
$endgroup$
Modify Memory
Depending on the circumstances and the precise information you need to keep secret, you may able to effectively defeat a Zone of Truth by having your memory modified in advance by an ally using the Modify Memory spell. Affected creatures in a Zone of Truth cannot deliberately lie, but that doesn't mean that whatever they believe to be true actually is. After interrogation, someone surreptitiously casts Remove Curse or Greater Restoration on you and your original memory returns, at which point you presumably mutter "keikaku1 doori".
Given the restrictions of Modify Memory this works best for concealing knowledge of specific events; the longer ago the events are or the more material you have to cover, the technique swiftly becomes impractical.
This doesn't strictly meet your constraints since it requires you to actually be affected by Zone of Truth and does not conceal that from the caster, but I am not sure there actually is a reliable way to render oneself immune to the spell without tipping off or having to compromise the caster. Either they know you're passing your saves, or by lack of information they know you're not even making saves and therefore aren't affected.
1. keikaku means plan
edited 4 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
CarcerCarcer
27.4k583144
27.4k583144
$begingroup$
I agree that Modify Memory is a potential solution in general. However, in the specific context of a loyalty test, I think that Modify Memory is particularly unsuitable, since "A modified memory doesn't necessarily affect how a creature behaves, particularly if the memory contradicts the creature's natural inclinations, alignment, or beliefs. An illogical modified memory [...] is dismissed, perhaps as a bad dream." There's also the problem that if someone successfully uses Modify Memory to genuinely flip your loyalties, they will also need to restore your memory later.
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Now that I think about it, if there's only one interrogator, a better way to use Modify Memory might be to cast it on the interrogator during the interrogation (make sure they use their spell slot on ZoT first, though, or they might spot the inconsistency).
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RyanThompson: Unless you're a sorcerer with Subtle Spell multiclassed into one of the spells that can cast modify memory, you casting the spell will probably be noticed pretty easily... Plus I imagine most interrogations aren't one-on-one anyway. (Nice Death Note reference, Carcer :P )
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
14 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I agree that Modify Memory is a potential solution in general. However, in the specific context of a loyalty test, I think that Modify Memory is particularly unsuitable, since "A modified memory doesn't necessarily affect how a creature behaves, particularly if the memory contradicts the creature's natural inclinations, alignment, or beliefs. An illogical modified memory [...] is dismissed, perhaps as a bad dream." There's also the problem that if someone successfully uses Modify Memory to genuinely flip your loyalties, they will also need to restore your memory later.
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Now that I think about it, if there's only one interrogator, a better way to use Modify Memory might be to cast it on the interrogator during the interrogation (make sure they use their spell slot on ZoT first, though, or they might spot the inconsistency).
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RyanThompson: Unless you're a sorcerer with Subtle Spell multiclassed into one of the spells that can cast modify memory, you casting the spell will probably be noticed pretty easily... Plus I imagine most interrogations aren't one-on-one anyway. (Nice Death Note reference, Carcer :P )
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
14 mins ago
$begingroup$
I agree that Modify Memory is a potential solution in general. However, in the specific context of a loyalty test, I think that Modify Memory is particularly unsuitable, since "A modified memory doesn't necessarily affect how a creature behaves, particularly if the memory contradicts the creature's natural inclinations, alignment, or beliefs. An illogical modified memory [...] is dismissed, perhaps as a bad dream." There's also the problem that if someone successfully uses Modify Memory to genuinely flip your loyalties, they will also need to restore your memory later.
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
I agree that Modify Memory is a potential solution in general. However, in the specific context of a loyalty test, I think that Modify Memory is particularly unsuitable, since "A modified memory doesn't necessarily affect how a creature behaves, particularly if the memory contradicts the creature's natural inclinations, alignment, or beliefs. An illogical modified memory [...] is dismissed, perhaps as a bad dream." There's also the problem that if someone successfully uses Modify Memory to genuinely flip your loyalties, they will also need to restore your memory later.
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Now that I think about it, if there's only one interrogator, a better way to use Modify Memory might be to cast it on the interrogator during the interrogation (make sure they use their spell slot on ZoT first, though, or they might spot the inconsistency).
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
Now that I think about it, if there's only one interrogator, a better way to use Modify Memory might be to cast it on the interrogator during the interrogation (make sure they use their spell slot on ZoT first, though, or they might spot the inconsistency).
$endgroup$
– Ryan Thompson
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RyanThompson: Unless you're a sorcerer with Subtle Spell multiclassed into one of the spells that can cast modify memory, you casting the spell will probably be noticed pretty easily... Plus I imagine most interrogations aren't one-on-one anyway. (Nice Death Note reference, Carcer :P )
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
14 mins ago
$begingroup$
@RyanThompson: Unless you're a sorcerer with Subtle Spell multiclassed into one of the spells that can cast modify memory, you casting the spell will probably be noticed pretty easily... Plus I imagine most interrogations aren't one-on-one anyway. (Nice Death Note reference, Carcer :P )
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
14 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Mastermind archetype for the Rogue class from Xanathar's Guide to Everything has a class feature, Soul of Deceit, which is explicitly about defeating truth magic: it says that you can't be compelled to tell the truth by magic and that magic that determines if you're telling the truth says you are.
This isn't succeeding on the save; it doesn't say anything about a saving throw. I would read the effects as that you make the saving throw as normal, but can ignore the results and lie as you like.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Mastermind archetype for the Rogue class from Xanathar's Guide to Everything has a class feature, Soul of Deceit, which is explicitly about defeating truth magic: it says that you can't be compelled to tell the truth by magic and that magic that determines if you're telling the truth says you are.
This isn't succeeding on the save; it doesn't say anything about a saving throw. I would read the effects as that you make the saving throw as normal, but can ignore the results and lie as you like.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Mastermind archetype for the Rogue class from Xanathar's Guide to Everything has a class feature, Soul of Deceit, which is explicitly about defeating truth magic: it says that you can't be compelled to tell the truth by magic and that magic that determines if you're telling the truth says you are.
This isn't succeeding on the save; it doesn't say anything about a saving throw. I would read the effects as that you make the saving throw as normal, but can ignore the results and lie as you like.
$endgroup$
The Mastermind archetype for the Rogue class from Xanathar's Guide to Everything has a class feature, Soul of Deceit, which is explicitly about defeating truth magic: it says that you can't be compelled to tell the truth by magic and that magic that determines if you're telling the truth says you are.
This isn't succeeding on the save; it doesn't say anything about a saving throw. I would read the effects as that you make the saving throw as normal, but can ignore the results and lie as you like.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 2 hours ago
Louis WassermanLouis Wasserman
70613
70613
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Is help from allies allowed?
$endgroup$
– Szega
3 hours ago