What are the real rules for choosing between the simple past and past perfect when both actions are in the past?Past simple vs. past perfectIs “having have been” / “having have eaten” grammatically correct? Is it a verb tense?switching narrative tensesPast perfect vs. simple pastSimple past tense vs. perfect past tenseMeaning of simple sentence in different tenses“Since” without present perfect due to cleft sentence?Past perfect after establishing that we are talking about the pastPast Perfect Tense Used Instead of Past Simple in 'The Kite Runner'How to choose tense while using “in case” in a sentence?

What was the first Intel x86 processor with "Base + Index * Scale + Displacement" addressing mode?

Symbolic Multivariate Distribution

Unexpected email from Yorkshire Bank

Critique of timeline aesthetic

How to creep the reader out with what seems like a normal person?

A ​Note ​on ​N!

Packing rectangles: Does rotation ever help?

What does the "ep" capability mean?

Map of water taps to fill bottles

How does a program know if stdout is connected to a terminal or a pipe?

What is Niska's accent?

How to verbalise code in Mathematica?

Is there a way to get a compiler for the original B programming language?

What's the polite way to say "I need to urinate"?

Size of electromagnet needed to replicate Earth's magnetic field

a sore throat vs a strep throat vs strep throat

how to find the equation of a circle given points of the circle

Can I spend a night at Vancouver then take a flight to my college in Toronto as an international student?

Fizzy, soft, pop and still drinks

Normal Map bad shading in Rendered display

How can I practically buy stocks?

Seemingly unused edef prior to an ifx mysteriously affects the outcome of the ifx. Why?

Pulling the rope with one hand is as heavy as with two hands?

Binary Numbers Magic Trick



What are the real rules for choosing between the simple past and past perfect when both actions are in the past?


Past simple vs. past perfectIs “having have been” / “having have eaten” grammatically correct? Is it a verb tense?switching narrative tensesPast perfect vs. simple pastSimple past tense vs. perfect past tenseMeaning of simple sentence in different tenses“Since” without present perfect due to cleft sentence?Past perfect after establishing that we are talking about the pastPast Perfect Tense Used Instead of Past Simple in 'The Kite Runner'How to choose tense while using “in case” in a sentence?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








0















What are the real rules for choosing past perfect versus choosing past simple when you have two different past actions?



I ask because the English sequence of tenses rules I was taught would have made me choose different tenses than those the writers in all three examples I show below chose.



That makes me think I wasn’t taught the correct, or at least the complete, rules.



What are they really, and why?





  1. Why is past perfect used here for the second verb instead of past simple again like the first one?





    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he had heard since the beginning of his chastisement.



    Why is it had heard instead of simply heard, like this?






    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he heard since the beginning of his chastisement.




    Is the second version also right?




  2. Why are both verbs in the second sentence in past simple instead of the first one of them being in past perfect to show that it (had?) happened first?





    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we began playing, it started to rain.



    Wouldn’t it be correct to use after we had begun playing here, like this?






    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we had begun playing, it started to rain.




    Is the second version also right?




  3. Here again, why is the first verb in past perfect instead of in past simple like the second one?





    • One of the young men who had been injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.



    Why not use this version instead?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.




    Is the second version also right? What about this one?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines had been a laborer on the construction site.





If the originals are all perfectly right, then are my proposals also right or are they wrong? Could they ever be right?



Could the originals ever be wrong? How do you decide which to use?



Do they mean different things to a native speaker?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

    – TrevorD
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

    – Peter Shor
    13 mins ago












  • Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

    – Peter Shor
    11 mins ago


















0















What are the real rules for choosing past perfect versus choosing past simple when you have two different past actions?



I ask because the English sequence of tenses rules I was taught would have made me choose different tenses than those the writers in all three examples I show below chose.



That makes me think I wasn’t taught the correct, or at least the complete, rules.



What are they really, and why?





  1. Why is past perfect used here for the second verb instead of past simple again like the first one?





    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he had heard since the beginning of his chastisement.



    Why is it had heard instead of simply heard, like this?






    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he heard since the beginning of his chastisement.




    Is the second version also right?




  2. Why are both verbs in the second sentence in past simple instead of the first one of them being in past perfect to show that it (had?) happened first?





    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we began playing, it started to rain.



    Wouldn’t it be correct to use after we had begun playing here, like this?






    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we had begun playing, it started to rain.




    Is the second version also right?




  3. Here again, why is the first verb in past perfect instead of in past simple like the second one?





    • One of the young men who had been injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.



    Why not use this version instead?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.




    Is the second version also right? What about this one?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines had been a laborer on the construction site.





If the originals are all perfectly right, then are my proposals also right or are they wrong? Could they ever be right?



Could the originals ever be wrong? How do you decide which to use?



Do they mean different things to a native speaker?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

    – TrevorD
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

    – Peter Shor
    13 mins ago












  • Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

    – Peter Shor
    11 mins ago














0












0








0


2






What are the real rules for choosing past perfect versus choosing past simple when you have two different past actions?



I ask because the English sequence of tenses rules I was taught would have made me choose different tenses than those the writers in all three examples I show below chose.



That makes me think I wasn’t taught the correct, or at least the complete, rules.



What are they really, and why?





  1. Why is past perfect used here for the second verb instead of past simple again like the first one?





    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he had heard since the beginning of his chastisement.



    Why is it had heard instead of simply heard, like this?






    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he heard since the beginning of his chastisement.




    Is the second version also right?




  2. Why are both verbs in the second sentence in past simple instead of the first one of them being in past perfect to show that it (had?) happened first?





    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we began playing, it started to rain.



    Wouldn’t it be correct to use after we had begun playing here, like this?






    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we had begun playing, it started to rain.




    Is the second version also right?




  3. Here again, why is the first verb in past perfect instead of in past simple like the second one?





    • One of the young men who had been injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.



    Why not use this version instead?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.




    Is the second version also right? What about this one?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines had been a laborer on the construction site.





If the originals are all perfectly right, then are my proposals also right or are they wrong? Could they ever be right?



Could the originals ever be wrong? How do you decide which to use?



Do they mean different things to a native speaker?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












What are the real rules for choosing past perfect versus choosing past simple when you have two different past actions?



I ask because the English sequence of tenses rules I was taught would have made me choose different tenses than those the writers in all three examples I show below chose.



That makes me think I wasn’t taught the correct, or at least the complete, rules.



What are they really, and why?





  1. Why is past perfect used here for the second verb instead of past simple again like the first one?





    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he had heard since the beginning of his chastisement.



    Why is it had heard instead of simply heard, like this?






    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he heard since the beginning of his chastisement.




    Is the second version also right?




  2. Why are both verbs in the second sentence in past simple instead of the first one of them being in past perfect to show that it (had?) happened first?





    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we began playing, it started to rain.



    Wouldn’t it be correct to use after we had begun playing here, like this?






    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we had begun playing, it started to rain.




    Is the second version also right?




  3. Here again, why is the first verb in past perfect instead of in past simple like the second one?





    • One of the young men who had been injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.



    Why not use this version instead?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.




    Is the second version also right? What about this one?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines had been a laborer on the construction site.





If the originals are all perfectly right, then are my proposals also right or are they wrong? Could they ever be right?



Could the originals ever be wrong? How do you decide which to use?



Do they mean different things to a native speaker?







writing-style sequence-of-tenses simple-past-vs-past-perfect is-it-a-rule narration






share|improve this question









New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 29 mins ago









tchrist

110k30297477




110k30297477






New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 2 hours ago









OliaoliaoliaoliaOliaoliaoliaolia

4




4




New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












  • The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

    – TrevorD
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

    – Peter Shor
    13 mins ago












  • Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

    – Peter Shor
    11 mins ago


















  • The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

    – TrevorD
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

    – Peter Shor
    13 mins ago












  • Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

    – Peter Shor
    11 mins ago

















The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

– TrevorD
1 hour ago





The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

– TrevorD
1 hour ago




1




1





Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

– Peter Shor
13 mins ago






Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

– Peter Shor
13 mins ago














Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

– Peter Shor
11 mins ago






Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

– Peter Shor
11 mins ago











1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















0














  1. The hugs were after the beginning of his confinement, and the verb had heard acquires the time frame of his confinement from the since, so the time frame of the verb had heard is before the hugs.


  2. We usually don't use the past perfect if the order of the verbs is clear. Here, the verbs occur in the sentence in the same order that they happen (if this isn't the case, it's a trigger for using the past perfect), and there's also the preposition after in the sentence, so the order of events is perfectly clear, and the past perfect is optional here. You could use it, but you don't need to.


  3. There are two events here, and from the sentence, the order of these events isn't at all clear. I would infer from the tenses in the sentence that he has worked at the construction site since he was injured in the attack. If he first worked at the construction site, and then was injured in the attack severely enough that he couldn't work, these verb tenses are wrong.





share























    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "97"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );






    Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fenglish.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f496418%2fwhat-are-the-real-rules-for-choosing-between-the-simple-past-and-past-perfect-wh%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes








    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    0














    1. The hugs were after the beginning of his confinement, and the verb had heard acquires the time frame of his confinement from the since, so the time frame of the verb had heard is before the hugs.


    2. We usually don't use the past perfect if the order of the verbs is clear. Here, the verbs occur in the sentence in the same order that they happen (if this isn't the case, it's a trigger for using the past perfect), and there's also the preposition after in the sentence, so the order of events is perfectly clear, and the past perfect is optional here. You could use it, but you don't need to.


    3. There are two events here, and from the sentence, the order of these events isn't at all clear. I would infer from the tenses in the sentence that he has worked at the construction site since he was injured in the attack. If he first worked at the construction site, and then was injured in the attack severely enough that he couldn't work, these verb tenses are wrong.





    share



























      0














      1. The hugs were after the beginning of his confinement, and the verb had heard acquires the time frame of his confinement from the since, so the time frame of the verb had heard is before the hugs.


      2. We usually don't use the past perfect if the order of the verbs is clear. Here, the verbs occur in the sentence in the same order that they happen (if this isn't the case, it's a trigger for using the past perfect), and there's also the preposition after in the sentence, so the order of events is perfectly clear, and the past perfect is optional here. You could use it, but you don't need to.


      3. There are two events here, and from the sentence, the order of these events isn't at all clear. I would infer from the tenses in the sentence that he has worked at the construction site since he was injured in the attack. If he first worked at the construction site, and then was injured in the attack severely enough that he couldn't work, these verb tenses are wrong.





      share

























        0












        0








        0







        1. The hugs were after the beginning of his confinement, and the verb had heard acquires the time frame of his confinement from the since, so the time frame of the verb had heard is before the hugs.


        2. We usually don't use the past perfect if the order of the verbs is clear. Here, the verbs occur in the sentence in the same order that they happen (if this isn't the case, it's a trigger for using the past perfect), and there's also the preposition after in the sentence, so the order of events is perfectly clear, and the past perfect is optional here. You could use it, but you don't need to.


        3. There are two events here, and from the sentence, the order of these events isn't at all clear. I would infer from the tenses in the sentence that he has worked at the construction site since he was injured in the attack. If he first worked at the construction site, and then was injured in the attack severely enough that he couldn't work, these verb tenses are wrong.





        share













        1. The hugs were after the beginning of his confinement, and the verb had heard acquires the time frame of his confinement from the since, so the time frame of the verb had heard is before the hugs.


        2. We usually don't use the past perfect if the order of the verbs is clear. Here, the verbs occur in the sentence in the same order that they happen (if this isn't the case, it's a trigger for using the past perfect), and there's also the preposition after in the sentence, so the order of events is perfectly clear, and the past perfect is optional here. You could use it, but you don't need to.


        3. There are two events here, and from the sentence, the order of these events isn't at all clear. I would infer from the tenses in the sentence that he has worked at the construction site since he was injured in the attack. If he first worked at the construction site, and then was injured in the attack severely enough that he couldn't work, these verb tenses are wrong.






        share











        share


        share










        answered 21 secs ago









        Peter Shor Peter Shor

        64.1k6125231




        64.1k6125231




















            Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












            Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











            Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














            Thanks for contributing an answer to English Language & Usage Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fenglish.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f496418%2fwhat-are-the-real-rules-for-choosing-between-the-simple-past-and-past-perfect-wh%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            How to create a command for the “strange m” symbol in latex? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)How do you make your own symbol when Detexify fails?Writing bold small caps with mathpazo packageplus-minus symbol with parenthesis around the minus signGreek character in Beamer document titleHow to create dashed right arrow over symbol?Currency symbol: Turkish LiraDouble prec as a single symbol?Plus Sign Too Big; How to Call adfbullet?Is there a TeX macro for three-legged pi?How do I get my integral-like symbol to align like the integral?How to selectively substitute a letter with another symbol representing the same letterHow do I generate a less than symbol and vertical bar that are the same height?

            Българска екзархия Съдържание История | Български екзарси | Вижте също | Външни препратки | Литература | Бележки | НавигацияУстав за управлението на българската екзархия. Цариград, 1870Слово на Ловешкия митрополит Иларион при откриването на Българския народен събор в Цариград на 23. II. 1870 г.Българската правда и гръцката кривда. От С. М. (= Софийски Мелетий). Цариград, 1872Предстоятели на Българската екзархияПодмененият ВеликденИнформационна агенция „Фокус“Димитър Ризов. Българите в техните исторически, етнографически и политически граници (Атлас съдържащ 40 карти). Berlin, Königliche Hoflithographie, Hof-Buch- und -Steindruckerei Wilhelm Greve, 1917Report of the International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars

            Чепеларе Съдържание География | История | Население | Спортни и природни забележителности | Културни и исторически обекти | Религии | Обществени институции | Известни личности | Редовни събития | Галерия | Източници | Литература | Външни препратки | Навигация41°43′23.99″ с. ш. 24°41′09.99″ и. д. / 41.723333° с. ш. 24.686111° и. д.*ЧепелареЧепеларски Linux fest 2002Начало на Зимен сезон 2005/06Национални хайдушки празници „Капитан Петко Войвода“Град ЧепелареЧепеларе – народният ски курортbgrod.orgwww.terranatura.hit.bgСправка за населението на гр. Исперих, общ. Исперих, обл. РазградМузей на родопския карстМузей на спорта и скитеЧепеларебългарскибългарскианглийскитукИстория на градаСки писти в ЧепелареВремето в ЧепелареРадио и телевизия в ЧепелареЧепеларе мами с родопски чар и добри пистиЕвтин туризъм и снежни атракции в ЧепелареМестоположениеИнформация и снимки от музея на родопския карст3D панорами от ЧепелареЧепелареррр