What are the real rules for choosing between the simple past and past perfect when both actions are in the past?Past simple vs. past perfectIs “having have been” / “having have eaten” grammatically correct? Is it a verb tense?switching narrative tensesPast perfect vs. simple pastSimple past tense vs. perfect past tenseMeaning of simple sentence in different tenses“Since” without present perfect due to cleft sentence?Past perfect after establishing that we are talking about the pastPast Perfect Tense Used Instead of Past Simple in 'The Kite Runner'How to choose tense while using “in case” in a sentence?

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What are the real rules for choosing between the simple past and past perfect when both actions are in the past?


Past simple vs. past perfectIs “having have been” / “having have eaten” grammatically correct? Is it a verb tense?switching narrative tensesPast perfect vs. simple pastSimple past tense vs. perfect past tenseMeaning of simple sentence in different tenses“Since” without present perfect due to cleft sentence?Past perfect after establishing that we are talking about the pastPast Perfect Tense Used Instead of Past Simple in 'The Kite Runner'How to choose tense while using “in case” in a sentence?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








0















What are the real rules for choosing past perfect versus choosing past simple when you have two different past actions?



I ask because the English sequence of tenses rules I was taught would have made me choose different tenses than those the writers in all three examples I show below chose.



That makes me think I wasn’t taught the correct, or at least the complete, rules.



What are they really, and why?





  1. Why is past perfect used here for the second verb instead of past simple again like the first one?





    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he had heard since the beginning of his chastisement.



    Why is it had heard instead of simply heard, like this?






    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he heard since the beginning of his chastisement.




    Is the second version also right?




  2. Why are both verbs in the second sentence in past simple instead of the first one of them being in past perfect to show that it (had?) happened first?





    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we began playing, it started to rain.



    Wouldn’t it be correct to use after we had begun playing here, like this?






    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we had begun playing, it started to rain.




    Is the second version also right?




  3. Here again, why is the first verb in past perfect instead of in past simple like the second one?





    • One of the young men who had been injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.



    Why not use this version instead?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.




    Is the second version also right? What about this one?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines had been a laborer on the construction site.





If the originals are all perfectly right, then are my proposals also right or are they wrong? Could they ever be right?



Could the originals ever be wrong? How do you decide which to use?



Do they mean different things to a native speaker?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

    – TrevorD
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

    – Peter Shor
    13 mins ago












  • Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

    – Peter Shor
    11 mins ago


















0















What are the real rules for choosing past perfect versus choosing past simple when you have two different past actions?



I ask because the English sequence of tenses rules I was taught would have made me choose different tenses than those the writers in all three examples I show below chose.



That makes me think I wasn’t taught the correct, or at least the complete, rules.



What are they really, and why?





  1. Why is past perfect used here for the second verb instead of past simple again like the first one?





    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he had heard since the beginning of his chastisement.



    Why is it had heard instead of simply heard, like this?






    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he heard since the beginning of his chastisement.




    Is the second version also right?




  2. Why are both verbs in the second sentence in past simple instead of the first one of them being in past perfect to show that it (had?) happened first?





    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we began playing, it started to rain.



    Wouldn’t it be correct to use after we had begun playing here, like this?






    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we had begun playing, it started to rain.




    Is the second version also right?




  3. Here again, why is the first verb in past perfect instead of in past simple like the second one?





    • One of the young men who had been injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.



    Why not use this version instead?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.




    Is the second version also right? What about this one?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines had been a laborer on the construction site.





If the originals are all perfectly right, then are my proposals also right or are they wrong? Could they ever be right?



Could the originals ever be wrong? How do you decide which to use?



Do they mean different things to a native speaker?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

    – TrevorD
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

    – Peter Shor
    13 mins ago












  • Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

    – Peter Shor
    11 mins ago














0












0








0


2






What are the real rules for choosing past perfect versus choosing past simple when you have two different past actions?



I ask because the English sequence of tenses rules I was taught would have made me choose different tenses than those the writers in all three examples I show below chose.



That makes me think I wasn’t taught the correct, or at least the complete, rules.



What are they really, and why?





  1. Why is past perfect used here for the second verb instead of past simple again like the first one?





    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he had heard since the beginning of his chastisement.



    Why is it had heard instead of simply heard, like this?






    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he heard since the beginning of his chastisement.




    Is the second version also right?




  2. Why are both verbs in the second sentence in past simple instead of the first one of them being in past perfect to show that it (had?) happened first?





    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we began playing, it started to rain.



    Wouldn’t it be correct to use after we had begun playing here, like this?






    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we had begun playing, it started to rain.




    Is the second version also right?




  3. Here again, why is the first verb in past perfect instead of in past simple like the second one?





    • One of the young men who had been injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.



    Why not use this version instead?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.




    Is the second version also right? What about this one?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines had been a laborer on the construction site.





If the originals are all perfectly right, then are my proposals also right or are they wrong? Could they ever be right?



Could the originals ever be wrong? How do you decide which to use?



Do they mean different things to a native speaker?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












What are the real rules for choosing past perfect versus choosing past simple when you have two different past actions?



I ask because the English sequence of tenses rules I was taught would have made me choose different tenses than those the writers in all three examples I show below chose.



That makes me think I wasn’t taught the correct, or at least the complete, rules.



What are they really, and why?





  1. Why is past perfect used here for the second verb instead of past simple again like the first one?





    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he had heard since the beginning of his chastisement.



    Why is it had heard instead of simply heard, like this?






    • They soothed him with hugs and the first kind words he heard since the beginning of his chastisement.




    Is the second version also right?




  2. Why are both verbs in the second sentence in past simple instead of the first one of them being in past perfect to show that it (had?) happened first?





    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we began playing, it started to rain.



    Wouldn’t it be correct to use after we had begun playing here, like this?






    • We played tennis yesterday. Half an hour after we had begun playing, it started to rain.




    Is the second version also right?




  3. Here again, why is the first verb in past perfect instead of in past simple like the second one?





    • One of the young men who had been injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.



    Why not use this version instead?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines was a laborer on the construction site.




    Is the second version also right? What about this one?





    • One of the young men who were injured in an attack on our supply lines had been a laborer on the construction site.





If the originals are all perfectly right, then are my proposals also right or are they wrong? Could they ever be right?



Could the originals ever be wrong? How do you decide which to use?



Do they mean different things to a native speaker?







writing-style sequence-of-tenses simple-past-vs-past-perfect is-it-a-rule narration






share|improve this question









New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 29 mins ago









tchrist

110k30297477




110k30297477






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asked 2 hours ago









OliaoliaoliaoliaOliaoliaoliaolia

4




4




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New contributor





Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Oliaoliaoliaolia is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












  • The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

    – TrevorD
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

    – Peter Shor
    13 mins ago












  • Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

    – Peter Shor
    11 mins ago


















  • The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

    – TrevorD
    1 hour ago






  • 1





    Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

    – Peter Shor
    13 mins ago












  • Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

    – Peter Shor
    11 mins ago

















The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

– TrevorD
1 hour ago





The choice of tense may have been affected by surrounding sentences - but you have not provided any context for your quotations.

– TrevorD
1 hour ago




1




1





Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

– Peter Shor
13 mins ago






Why do you think the first one should be plain heard? What rule that you were taught requires this? We can't decide whether the rules you were taught are wrong, or whether you are simply misinterpreting them until we know this.

– Peter Shor
13 mins ago














Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

– Peter Shor
11 mins ago






Did the man who was injured in the attack on the supply line get injured while he was a laborer on the construction site, or before he was a laborer on the construction site? And did he resume his work at the construction site after he was injured?

– Peter Shor
11 mins ago











1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















0














  1. The hugs were after the beginning of his confinement, and the verb had heard acquires the time frame of his confinement from the since, so the time frame of the verb had heard is before the hugs.


  2. We usually don't use the past perfect if the order of the verbs is clear. Here, the verbs occur in the sentence in the same order that they happen (if this isn't the case, it's a trigger for using the past perfect), and there's also the preposition after in the sentence, so the order of events is perfectly clear, and the past perfect is optional here. You could use it, but you don't need to.


  3. There are two events here, and from the sentence, the order of these events isn't at all clear. I would infer from the tenses in the sentence that he has worked at the construction site since he was injured in the attack. If he first worked at the construction site, and then was injured in the attack severely enough that he couldn't work, these verb tenses are wrong.





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    1. The hugs were after the beginning of his confinement, and the verb had heard acquires the time frame of his confinement from the since, so the time frame of the verb had heard is before the hugs.


    2. We usually don't use the past perfect if the order of the verbs is clear. Here, the verbs occur in the sentence in the same order that they happen (if this isn't the case, it's a trigger for using the past perfect), and there's also the preposition after in the sentence, so the order of events is perfectly clear, and the past perfect is optional here. You could use it, but you don't need to.


    3. There are two events here, and from the sentence, the order of these events isn't at all clear. I would infer from the tenses in the sentence that he has worked at the construction site since he was injured in the attack. If he first worked at the construction site, and then was injured in the attack severely enough that he couldn't work, these verb tenses are wrong.





    share



























      0














      1. The hugs were after the beginning of his confinement, and the verb had heard acquires the time frame of his confinement from the since, so the time frame of the verb had heard is before the hugs.


      2. We usually don't use the past perfect if the order of the verbs is clear. Here, the verbs occur in the sentence in the same order that they happen (if this isn't the case, it's a trigger for using the past perfect), and there's also the preposition after in the sentence, so the order of events is perfectly clear, and the past perfect is optional here. You could use it, but you don't need to.


      3. There are two events here, and from the sentence, the order of these events isn't at all clear. I would infer from the tenses in the sentence that he has worked at the construction site since he was injured in the attack. If he first worked at the construction site, and then was injured in the attack severely enough that he couldn't work, these verb tenses are wrong.





      share

























        0












        0








        0







        1. The hugs were after the beginning of his confinement, and the verb had heard acquires the time frame of his confinement from the since, so the time frame of the verb had heard is before the hugs.


        2. We usually don't use the past perfect if the order of the verbs is clear. Here, the verbs occur in the sentence in the same order that they happen (if this isn't the case, it's a trigger for using the past perfect), and there's also the preposition after in the sentence, so the order of events is perfectly clear, and the past perfect is optional here. You could use it, but you don't need to.


        3. There are two events here, and from the sentence, the order of these events isn't at all clear. I would infer from the tenses in the sentence that he has worked at the construction site since he was injured in the attack. If he first worked at the construction site, and then was injured in the attack severely enough that he couldn't work, these verb tenses are wrong.





        share













        1. The hugs were after the beginning of his confinement, and the verb had heard acquires the time frame of his confinement from the since, so the time frame of the verb had heard is before the hugs.


        2. We usually don't use the past perfect if the order of the verbs is clear. Here, the verbs occur in the sentence in the same order that they happen (if this isn't the case, it's a trigger for using the past perfect), and there's also the preposition after in the sentence, so the order of events is perfectly clear, and the past perfect is optional here. You could use it, but you don't need to.


        3. There are two events here, and from the sentence, the order of these events isn't at all clear. I would infer from the tenses in the sentence that he has worked at the construction site since he was injured in the attack. If he first worked at the construction site, and then was injured in the attack severely enough that he couldn't work, these verb tenses are wrong.






        share











        share


        share










        answered 21 secs ago









        Peter Shor Peter Shor

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