Difficulty understanding group delay conceptPhysical significance of group delayCalculating Circuit Delayphase wrapping group delayUnderstanding max and min propagation delay in flip-flopsEstimating via propagation delayHow to introduce delay to a signalGroup delay and phase delay of a filterCalculating Phase/Time Delay induced by a 2-pole Bandpass filter? ie. Group Delay?Is group delay the same as the delay of a certain frequency?Physical significance of positive group delay with negative phase delayDelay pulse (trigger) for a variable delay respectively to 0-5V input

is this saw blade faulty?

When did hardware antialiasing start being available?

Was World War I a war of liberals against authoritarians?

Should a narrator ever describe things based on a characters view instead of fact?

CLI: Get information Ubuntu releases

Do people actually use the word "kaputt" in conversation?

UK Tourist Visa- Enquiry

Why is this tree refusing to shed its dead leaves?

If I cast the Enlarge/Reduce spell on an arrow, what weapon could it count as?

Is xar preinstalled on macOS?

Turning a hard to access nut?

How do researchers send unsolicited emails asking for feedback on their works?

label a part of commutative diagram

Emojional cryptic crossword

Print a physical multiplication table

PTIJ: Why do we make a Lulav holder?

The English Debate

How to test the sharpness of a knife?

Have the tides ever turned twice on any open problem?

Norwegian Refugee travel document

Why is participating in the European Parliamentary elections used as a threat?

Why are there no stars visible in cislunar space?

Air travel with refrigerated insulin

What will the Frenchman say?



Difficulty understanding group delay concept


Physical significance of group delayCalculating Circuit Delayphase wrapping group delayUnderstanding max and min propagation delay in flip-flopsEstimating via propagation delayHow to introduce delay to a signalGroup delay and phase delay of a filterCalculating Phase/Time Delay induced by a 2-pole Bandpass filter? ie. Group Delay?Is group delay the same as the delay of a certain frequency?Physical significance of positive group delay with negative phase delayDelay pulse (trigger) for a variable delay respectively to 0-5V input













2












$begingroup$


I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.



I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    2 hours ago















2












$begingroup$


I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.



I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    2 hours ago













2












2








2





$begingroup$


I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.



I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




I’m having difficulty understanding the concept of group delay. The mathematical definition is not difficult, since it says it is the negative derivative of Bode plot’s phase curve wrt frequency. Most often qualitative definitions are easy but the math is difficult. In this case seems the opposite or it is due to my ignorance.



I have read some similar questions but still did not get the reason for such a concept. Is it possible to illustrate this concept with an example in elementary level. I know the meaning of Fourrier transform, frequency domain representation, and basic filter theory. Also a bit of modulation. What would the derivative of a phase frequency plot tell us regarding a low pass filter for instance? Im completely lost on the meaning of it so I cant even pose the question well.







delay group






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 11 hours ago









user1999user1999

417313




417313











  • $begingroup$
    Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    2 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    2 hours ago















$begingroup$
Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
Group Delay is an indicator of how a waveform will be distorted, or preserved.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
2 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















5












$begingroup$

(1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:



$ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
times sin[w(t+$
$phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $



Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.



(2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.



Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).



From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:



We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay



$t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .



In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).



For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
    $endgroup$
    – LvW
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
    $endgroup$
    – Toor
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
    $endgroup$
    – LvW
    6 hours ago


















0












$begingroup$

Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.



Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.



The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.



As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago



















0












$begingroup$

If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.



If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.



If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.



(Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
    $endgroup$
    – TimWescott
    10 hours ago











Your Answer





StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("schematics", function ()
StackExchange.schematics.init();
);
, "cicuitlab");

StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "135"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f427824%2fdifficulty-understanding-group-delay-concept%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









5












$begingroup$

(1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:



$ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
times sin[w(t+$
$phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $



Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.



(2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.



Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).



From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:



We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay



$t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .



In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).



For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
    $endgroup$
    – LvW
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
    $endgroup$
    – Toor
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
    $endgroup$
    – LvW
    6 hours ago















5












$begingroup$

(1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:



$ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
times sin[w(t+$
$phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $



Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.



(2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.



Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).



From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:



We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay



$t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .



In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).



For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
    $endgroup$
    – LvW
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
    $endgroup$
    – Toor
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
    $endgroup$
    – LvW
    6 hours ago













5












5








5





$begingroup$

(1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:



$ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
times sin[w(t+$
$phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $



Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.



(2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.



Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).



From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:



We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay



$t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .



In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).



For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



(1) Let us start with the PHASE DELAY: The response of a linear two-port to a sinusoidal excitation is an output signal with the same frequency w but with a phase delay $ phi $:



$ V_out=V_max times sin(wt+phi)=V_max
times sin[w(t+$
$phiover w$ $)] = V_max times sin[w(t-t_p)] $



Here, the expression $t_p=-$ $ phi over w$ is a delay time (phase delay) between input and output.



(2) For communication purposes of arbitrary waveforms we need the superposition of several sinusoidal waves with different frequencies. Of course we do not want that the various sinusoidal waves suffer from DIFFERENT delay figures.



Hence, we want a constant delay time tp for all these frequencies and we require that the equation $|phi|=t_ptimes w$ results in a LINEAR rising function between $phi$ and $w$ (for $t_p$=const).



From system theory we know that such a requirement (linearity between $phi$ and $w$) can be realized within a relatively small frequency band only. Hence, we define this requirement to be valid only within a frequency band that is realtively small if compared with the mean value of these frequencies:



We express this linearity requirement in form of the slope of the function and arrive at the so-called group delay



$t_g=-$ $dphiover dw$ $=const$ .



In practice, this requirement can be fulfilled with some errors only. Therefore, the constancy of the value for the group delay tg is a good measure for the quality of a communication channel (low distortion).



For example, a constant group delay is very important for a "good" pulse transmission.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 7 hours ago









Toor

1,16529




1,16529










answered 10 hours ago









LvWLvW

14.6k21230




14.6k21230











  • $begingroup$
    Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
    $endgroup$
    – LvW
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
    $endgroup$
    – Toor
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
    $endgroup$
    – LvW
    6 hours ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
    $endgroup$
    – LvW
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    @LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
    $endgroup$
    – Toor
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
    $endgroup$
    – LvW
    6 hours ago















$begingroup$
Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
$endgroup$
– user1999
10 hours ago





$begingroup$
Oh this was a very great explanation. I was wondering the linearity requirement in phase delay and its connection with group delay. Your example is very clear.
$endgroup$
– user1999
10 hours ago













$begingroup$
Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
$endgroup$
– LvW
10 hours ago





$begingroup$
Further explanation/interpretation: For tg=const we require a constant slope for the phase function phi(w) in a certain frequency band only. That means: We do not require that function phi(w) crosses the origin, which would be the case for the phase function phi(w)=-tp*w (for w=0)
$endgroup$
– LvW
10 hours ago













$begingroup$
If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
$endgroup$
– user1999
10 hours ago





$begingroup$
If for w=0 phi(w) does not cross the origin, does that mean the DC input and output are not in phase 100%? Btw DC input and step input confused me because if we apply DC at a time it is actually a step and includes all freq range. w=0 is DC but yet in real applying DC happpens from zero to a level. Or is the DC here is steady state DC? In that case it is the speed of electric current I guess at w=0.
$endgroup$
– user1999
10 hours ago













$begingroup$
@LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
$endgroup$
– Toor
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
@LvW Formatted your equations. Check for correctness when someone else approves my changes.
$endgroup$
– Toor
9 hours ago












$begingroup$
Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
$endgroup$
– LvW
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
Toor - thank you for formatting my text.
$endgroup$
– LvW
6 hours ago













0












$begingroup$

Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.



Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.



The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.



As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago
















0












$begingroup$

Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.



Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.



The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.



As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago














0












0








0





$begingroup$

Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.



Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.



The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.



As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Group delay is the delay, in seconds, to a signal.



Imagine a cable that's (say) 1uS long, electrically. If you put a step into one end, the step will come out 1uS later. If you plot the phase response of the cable, the phase at DC will be zero, and at 1MHz will be 2pi. The slope of the phase, d(phase)/d(frequency) is therefore 1uS.



The same goes for a filter. The delay to a signal through the filter is dp/df. As this measure will be frequency dependant, it only applies to signals which are bandlimited to lie within the range for which dp/df is fairly constant.



As a step in voltage is wideband, if this is passed through a filter with group delay that varies with frequency, the different frequencies of the step will be passed with different delays, and the result is dispersion, or smearing out of the step at the filter output.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 10 hours ago









Neil_UKNeil_UK

77.7k284178




77.7k284178











  • $begingroup$
    Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago

















  • $begingroup$
    Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago
















$begingroup$
Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
$endgroup$
– user1999
10 hours ago





$begingroup$
Your first paragraph I guess summerizes but mind blowing I read it ten times still cannot get it. I dont get the difference between the phase and group delay there. There is speed of electric voltage phase time electrical length ect.
$endgroup$
– user1999
10 hours ago












0












$begingroup$

If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.



If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.



If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.



(Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
    $endgroup$
    – TimWescott
    10 hours ago
















0












$begingroup$

If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.



If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.



If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.



(Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
    $endgroup$
    – TimWescott
    10 hours ago














0












0








0





$begingroup$

If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.



If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.



If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.



(Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



If the group delay for signals between $f_1$ and $f_2$ is $tau_1,2$, then a signal that's band-limited to lie between $f_1$ and $f_2$ will be delayed by $tau_1,2$.



If the group delay across the entire frequency band is the same number, then any signal will be delayed by that -- and it'll just be "delay", because the term "group delay" applies technically, but you don't need to get that specific.



If you have one signal (e.g. a pulse) that encounters a filter with a group delay that varies across the spectrum of your signal, then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times. This is why a pulse that's run through a simple lumped-component low-pass filter will be smeared out, but the same pulse run through a constant group-delay FIR filter will just be rounded.



(Because you asked about phase delay in the comments): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 10 hours ago

























answered 10 hours ago









TimWescottTimWescott

5,9921415




5,9921415











  • $begingroup$
    “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
    $endgroup$
    – TimWescott
    10 hours ago

















  • $begingroup$
    “then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
    $endgroup$
    – user1999
    10 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
    $endgroup$
    – TimWescott
    10 hours ago
















$begingroup$
“then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
$endgroup$
– user1999
10 hours ago





$begingroup$
“then your signal will get spread out, because various components will arrive at different times” isnt this the result of “phase delay”?
$endgroup$
– user1999
10 hours ago













$begingroup$
They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
$endgroup$
– TimWescott
10 hours ago





$begingroup$
They are different things. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_delay_and_phase_delay. Phase delay is the amount that the phase in a pure sine wave would be delayed; Group delay is the amount the information in the signal can be delayed. Just to really blow your mind, if you work out the equations for EM radiation in some media (specifically waveguides), the phase speed is actually faster than $c$ (as in the speed of light, $E = mc^2$, etc), so the phase delay is now phase advance -- but the group speed is less than $c$, so causality is not violated.
$endgroup$
– TimWescott
10 hours ago


















draft saved

draft discarded
















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2felectronics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f427824%2fdifficulty-understanding-group-delay-concept%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

How to create a command for the “strange m” symbol in latex? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)How do you make your own symbol when Detexify fails?Writing bold small caps with mathpazo packageplus-minus symbol with parenthesis around the minus signGreek character in Beamer document titleHow to create dashed right arrow over symbol?Currency symbol: Turkish LiraDouble prec as a single symbol?Plus Sign Too Big; How to Call adfbullet?Is there a TeX macro for three-legged pi?How do I get my integral-like symbol to align like the integral?How to selectively substitute a letter with another symbol representing the same letterHow do I generate a less than symbol and vertical bar that are the same height?

Българска екзархия Съдържание История | Български екзарси | Вижте също | Външни препратки | Литература | Бележки | НавигацияУстав за управлението на българската екзархия. Цариград, 1870Слово на Ловешкия митрополит Иларион при откриването на Българския народен събор в Цариград на 23. II. 1870 г.Българската правда и гръцката кривда. От С. М. (= Софийски Мелетий). Цариград, 1872Предстоятели на Българската екзархияПодмененият ВеликденИнформационна агенция „Фокус“Димитър Ризов. Българите в техните исторически, етнографически и политически граници (Атлас съдържащ 40 карти). Berlin, Königliche Hoflithographie, Hof-Buch- und -Steindruckerei Wilhelm Greve, 1917Report of the International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars

Category:Tremithousa Media in category "Tremithousa"Navigation menuUpload media34° 49′ 02.7″ N, 32° 26′ 37.32″ EOpenStreetMapGoogle EarthProximityramaReasonatorScholiaStatisticsWikiShootMe