Proof of Lemma: Every integer can be written as a product of primesWhy is complete strong induction a valid proof method and not need to explicitly proof the base cases?Confused About Step in Proof of Divergence of $sum frac1p$Complete induction proof that every $n > 1$ can be written as a product of primesInduction Proof - Primes and Euclid's LemmaQuestion about a proof of FTA in A classical Introduction to modern number theoryEuclid's proof of Infinitude of Primes: If a prime divides an integer, why would it have to divide 1?Proof or disproof that every integer can be written as the sum of a prime and a square.Proof by well ordering: Every positive integer greater than one can be factored as a product of primes.Difficult Q: Show that every integer $n$ can be written in the form $n = a^2 b$….product of distinct primesNumber Theory Proof: Prove that if w is an extended integer with |N(w)| > 1 , then w can be written as a product of primes in the extended integers.Why is the proof not right ? Every positive integer can be written as a product of primes?

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Proof of Lemma: Every integer can be written as a product of primes


Why is complete strong induction a valid proof method and not need to explicitly proof the base cases?Confused About Step in Proof of Divergence of $sum frac1p$Complete induction proof that every $n > 1$ can be written as a product of primesInduction Proof - Primes and Euclid's LemmaQuestion about a proof of FTA in A classical Introduction to modern number theoryEuclid's proof of Infinitude of Primes: If a prime divides an integer, why would it have to divide 1?Proof or disproof that every integer can be written as the sum of a prime and a square.Proof by well ordering: Every positive integer greater than one can be factored as a product of primes.Difficult Q: Show that every integer $n$ can be written in the form $n = a^2 b$….product of distinct primesNumber Theory Proof: Prove that if w is an extended integer with |N(w)| > 1 , then w can be written as a product of primes in the extended integers.Why is the proof not right ? Every positive integer can be written as a product of primes?













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$begingroup$


I'm new to number theory. This might be kind of a silly question, so I'm sorry if it is.



I encountered the classic lemma about every nonzero integer being the product of primes in a textbook about number theory. In this textbook there is also a proof for it provided, and I'd like to understand why it is that the proof actually works.



The proof is as follows:




Assume, for contradiction, that there is an integer $N$ that cannot be written as a product of primes. Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer with this property. Since $N$ cannot itself be prime we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. However, since $m$, $n$ are positive and smaller than $N$ they must each be a product of primes. But then so is $N = mn$. This is a contradiction.




I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma. I think this line of reasoning could be strengthened using induction, and I've seen other proofs of this lemma that use induction. Can someone help me out? What am I missing and why do I think that this proof of the lemma is circular?



Edit: I'd like to add that this textbook states that if $p$ is a prime number, then so is $-p$. That's where my confusion stems from. The textbook is A Modern Introduction to Classical Number Theory by Ireland and Rosen.










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  • 2




    $begingroup$
    That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
    $endgroup$
    – lulu
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
    $endgroup$
    – José Carlos Santos
    yesterday






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    22 hours ago







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    $-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
    $endgroup$
    – Gerrit0
    19 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
    $endgroup$
    – Alena Gusakov
    8 hours ago















10












$begingroup$


I'm new to number theory. This might be kind of a silly question, so I'm sorry if it is.



I encountered the classic lemma about every nonzero integer being the product of primes in a textbook about number theory. In this textbook there is also a proof for it provided, and I'd like to understand why it is that the proof actually works.



The proof is as follows:




Assume, for contradiction, that there is an integer $N$ that cannot be written as a product of primes. Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer with this property. Since $N$ cannot itself be prime we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. However, since $m$, $n$ are positive and smaller than $N$ they must each be a product of primes. But then so is $N = mn$. This is a contradiction.




I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma. I think this line of reasoning could be strengthened using induction, and I've seen other proofs of this lemma that use induction. Can someone help me out? What am I missing and why do I think that this proof of the lemma is circular?



Edit: I'd like to add that this textbook states that if $p$ is a prime number, then so is $-p$. That's where my confusion stems from. The textbook is A Modern Introduction to Classical Number Theory by Ireland and Rosen.










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New contributor




Alena Gusakov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
    $endgroup$
    – lulu
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
    $endgroup$
    – José Carlos Santos
    yesterday






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    22 hours ago







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    $-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
    $endgroup$
    – Gerrit0
    19 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
    $endgroup$
    – Alena Gusakov
    8 hours ago













10












10








10


1



$begingroup$


I'm new to number theory. This might be kind of a silly question, so I'm sorry if it is.



I encountered the classic lemma about every nonzero integer being the product of primes in a textbook about number theory. In this textbook there is also a proof for it provided, and I'd like to understand why it is that the proof actually works.



The proof is as follows:




Assume, for contradiction, that there is an integer $N$ that cannot be written as a product of primes. Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer with this property. Since $N$ cannot itself be prime we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. However, since $m$, $n$ are positive and smaller than $N$ they must each be a product of primes. But then so is $N = mn$. This is a contradiction.




I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma. I think this line of reasoning could be strengthened using induction, and I've seen other proofs of this lemma that use induction. Can someone help me out? What am I missing and why do I think that this proof of the lemma is circular?



Edit: I'd like to add that this textbook states that if $p$ is a prime number, then so is $-p$. That's where my confusion stems from. The textbook is A Modern Introduction to Classical Number Theory by Ireland and Rosen.










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New contributor




Alena Gusakov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




I'm new to number theory. This might be kind of a silly question, so I'm sorry if it is.



I encountered the classic lemma about every nonzero integer being the product of primes in a textbook about number theory. In this textbook there is also a proof for it provided, and I'd like to understand why it is that the proof actually works.



The proof is as follows:




Assume, for contradiction, that there is an integer $N$ that cannot be written as a product of primes. Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer with this property. Since $N$ cannot itself be prime we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. However, since $m$, $n$ are positive and smaller than $N$ they must each be a product of primes. But then so is $N = mn$. This is a contradiction.




I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma. I think this line of reasoning could be strengthened using induction, and I've seen other proofs of this lemma that use induction. Can someone help me out? What am I missing and why do I think that this proof of the lemma is circular?



Edit: I'd like to add that this textbook states that if $p$ is a prime number, then so is $-p$. That's where my confusion stems from. The textbook is A Modern Introduction to Classical Number Theory by Ireland and Rosen.







elementary-number-theory prime-numbers proof-explanation integers






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edited 2 hours ago









mrtaurho

6,12271641




6,12271641






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asked yesterday









Alena GusakovAlena Gusakov

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515




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  • 2




    $begingroup$
    That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
    $endgroup$
    – lulu
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
    $endgroup$
    – José Carlos Santos
    yesterday






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    22 hours ago







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    $-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
    $endgroup$
    – Gerrit0
    19 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
    $endgroup$
    – Alena Gusakov
    8 hours ago












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
    $endgroup$
    – lulu
    yesterday






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
    $endgroup$
    – José Carlos Santos
    yesterday






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
    $endgroup$
    – Bill Dubuque
    22 hours ago







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    $-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
    $endgroup$
    – Gerrit0
    19 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
    $endgroup$
    – Alena Gusakov
    8 hours ago







2




2




$begingroup$
That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
$endgroup$
– lulu
yesterday




$begingroup$
That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
$endgroup$
– lulu
yesterday




1




1




$begingroup$
There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
yesterday




$begingroup$
There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
yesterday




4




4




$begingroup$
It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
22 hours ago





$begingroup$
It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
22 hours ago





2




2




$begingroup$
$-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
$endgroup$
– Gerrit0
19 hours ago




$begingroup$
$-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
$endgroup$
– Gerrit0
19 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
$endgroup$
– Alena Gusakov
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
@AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
$endgroup$
– Alena Gusakov
8 hours ago










7 Answers
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Although the proof by contradiction is correct, your feeling of unease is fine, because the direct proof by induction is so much clearer:




Take an integer $N$. If $N$ is prime, there is nothing to prove. Otherwise, we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. By induction, since $m, n$ are smaller than $N$, they must each be a product of primes. Then so is $N = mn$. Done.







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    This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
    $endgroup$
    – John Coleman
    13 hours ago










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    +1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
    $endgroup$
    – Bob Krueger
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
    $endgroup$
    – CopyPasteIt
    5 hours ago



















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The proof is not circular, the key is in the second sentence: Let N be the smallest positive integer with this property.



We are allowed to say a least $N$ exists because of the well-ordering principle.






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  • 1




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    I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
    $endgroup$
    – Don Thousand
    yesterday






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    @Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
    $endgroup$
    – Robert Soupe
    yesterday






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    @RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
    $endgroup$
    – Nate Eldredge
    23 hours ago







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    @DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
    $endgroup$
    – Nate Eldredge
    23 hours ago






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    @NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
    $endgroup$
    – Kevin
    21 hours ago



















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I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma.




Because it does.

It says so right in the first two sentences, which can be rephrased as:




Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer that cannot be written as a product of primes.




So yes, the proof assumes that all positive integers smaller than $N$ can be written as a product of primes.

This is OK, though, because it is trivially true for the smallest integers: 1, 2. The proof builds on that to infer that no such an $N$ exists where the lemma is not true.






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    I can definitely understand how this can feel a little off.



    1) The lemma (as stated in the question) says all nonzero integers. Primes are integers and, by definition, cannot be products of primes. So, I think the lemma probably is actually more along the lines of: "all positive non-prime integers can be written as a product of primes".



    2) Also, the statement "since 𝑚,𝑛 are positive and smaller than 𝑁 they must each be a product of primes" doesn't really explain why they must be a product of primes. Since, 𝑁 is the smallest positive non-prime integer that cannot be written as a product of primes (by supposition of the lemma), then 𝑚,𝑛 are either prime themselves or a product of primes (as they are less than 𝑁 and 𝑁 is the smallest number that isn't a product of primes). Either way, they will provide the primes necessary to create 𝑁, making 𝑁 able to be constructed as a product of primes.



    Hopefully this helps to see why the proof by contradiction works.






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    • $begingroup$
      As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
      $endgroup$
      – Martin Kochanski
      14 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      @MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
      $endgroup$
      – Especially Lime
      12 hours ago


















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    A proof by induction has base case(s), Let m and n be said base cases. if it's true for m and true for n (not necessarily distinct), then because it's a product, it follows for mn. All the proof supposes, is N=mn for some base case ( primes or prime powers to start, in these cases) with m and n proved. Then it follows for N, which by saying N which
    originally was consider the least element of a set of counterexamples, has one, it eliminates all possible least elements for the set we originally supposed existed.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      2












      $begingroup$

      An integer $n$ is said to be a composite if it can be expressed as the product of two integers $a$ and $b$ with $a notin -1,0,1$ and $b notin -1,0,1$.



      An integers $p notin -1,0,1$ that is not a composite is called a prime number.



      Recall the method of infinite descent used in mathematical proofs.



      Suppose $m notin -1,0,1$ and it can't be expressed as a product of primes. If $m lt 0$ then it is certainly true that the positive number $-m$ can't be factored into primes. So the existence of $m$ allows us to assert that there are positive integers greater than $1$ that can't be factored into a product of prime numbers.



      So using infinite descent, we have a minimal $n > 1$ that can't be written as a product of primes. In particular, $n$ can't be a prime. But then it must be a composite, and we can write



      $quad n = st text with s,t gt 1$



      Note: The composite factors $s$ and $t$ must both be positive or negative.

      If they are both negative, replace $s$ with $-s$ and $t$ with $-t$.



      But then $s lt n$ and so it can be written as a product of primes. Similarly, $t$ can be written as a product of primes. But then $n$ itself is a product of primes. But this is not possible by our choice of $n$. So the initial assumption of the existence of $m notin -1,0,1$ with no prime factorization leads to a contradiction.



      So every $n notin -1,0,1$ has a prime factorization.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$




















        1












        $begingroup$

        There is a property of the natural numbers called well-order. A set is well-ordered if every non-empty subset has a least element. So given any property $P$:



        1. The set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false is either empty or has a least element.


        2. Suppose there is some number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0)$ is false. If $n_0$ is the least such number, then obviously $P(n_0-1)$ is true [1] (otherwise $n_0-1$ would be a number for which $P$ is false that is smaller than $n_0$, and so $n_0$ wouldn't be the smallest such number).


        3. Thus, if we can prove that there is no number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0-1)$ is true and $P(n_0)$ is false (i.e. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$", then we have shown that the set of numbers for which $P$ is false has no least element.


        4. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$" is equivalent to "$forall n_0: (neg P(n_0-1) lor P(n_0))$", which is in turn equivalent to "$forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$".


        5. Thus, if we can prove $forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$, then it follows that the set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false does not have a least element. Since all non-empty sets of natural numbers have a least element, this set must be empty. That is, there are no numbers for which $P(n)$ is false, i.e. $P(n)$ is true for all $n$.


        [1] There is also the possibility that $n_0-1$ isn't a natural number, which happens when $n_0=0$. Dealing with this possibility requires proving that $P(0)$ is true separately, which is why induction proofs require a base case.



        So that's the concept behind induction proofs: if the proposition isn't true for all numbers, then there is a non-empty set of numbers for which it is false, which has to have a least element, which means that we have to go from "true" to "false" at some point. Inductive proofs thus look a bit like circular reasoning: you start assuming that the proposition is true, and use that to prove that the proposition is true. But what makes it non-fallacious is that you prove that the proposition is true for a later number by assuming that it's true for an earlier number.



        The proof that you cite is using the same basic principle as induction, namely the well-order of the natural numbers, but it is skipping the one-by-one sort of process that induction proofs usually use. Instead of saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n_0-1)$ being true leads to a contradiction", it's saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n)$ being true for $n<n_0$ leads to a contradiction". Like a standard induction proof, it superficially looks like circular reasoning, but isn't, because it's proving that the proposition is true for $N$ using the fact that it's true for smaller numbers.






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          7 Answers
          7






          active

          oldest

          votes








          7 Answers
          7






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          15












          $begingroup$

          Although the proof by contradiction is correct, your feeling of unease is fine, because the direct proof by induction is so much clearer:




          Take an integer $N$. If $N$ is prime, there is nothing to prove. Otherwise, we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. By induction, since $m, n$ are smaller than $N$, they must each be a product of primes. Then so is $N = mn$. Done.







          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$








          • 10




            $begingroup$
            This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
            $endgroup$
            – John Coleman
            13 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            +1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
            $endgroup$
            – Bob Krueger
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
            $endgroup$
            – CopyPasteIt
            5 hours ago
















          15












          $begingroup$

          Although the proof by contradiction is correct, your feeling of unease is fine, because the direct proof by induction is so much clearer:




          Take an integer $N$. If $N$ is prime, there is nothing to prove. Otherwise, we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. By induction, since $m, n$ are smaller than $N$, they must each be a product of primes. Then so is $N = mn$. Done.







          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$








          • 10




            $begingroup$
            This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
            $endgroup$
            – John Coleman
            13 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            +1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
            $endgroup$
            – Bob Krueger
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
            $endgroup$
            – CopyPasteIt
            5 hours ago














          15












          15








          15





          $begingroup$

          Although the proof by contradiction is correct, your feeling of unease is fine, because the direct proof by induction is so much clearer:




          Take an integer $N$. If $N$ is prime, there is nothing to prove. Otherwise, we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. By induction, since $m, n$ are smaller than $N$, they must each be a product of primes. Then so is $N = mn$. Done.







          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          Although the proof by contradiction is correct, your feeling of unease is fine, because the direct proof by induction is so much clearer:




          Take an integer $N$. If $N$ is prime, there is nothing to prove. Otherwise, we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. By induction, since $m, n$ are smaller than $N$, they must each be a product of primes. Then so is $N = mn$. Done.








          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered yesterday









          lhflhf

          167k11172403




          167k11172403







          • 10




            $begingroup$
            This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
            $endgroup$
            – John Coleman
            13 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            +1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
            $endgroup$
            – Bob Krueger
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
            $endgroup$
            – CopyPasteIt
            5 hours ago













          • 10




            $begingroup$
            This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
            $endgroup$
            – John Coleman
            13 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            +1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
            $endgroup$
            – Bob Krueger
            12 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
            $endgroup$
            – CopyPasteIt
            5 hours ago








          10




          10




          $begingroup$
          This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
          $endgroup$
          – John Coleman
          13 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
          $endgroup$
          – John Coleman
          13 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          +1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
          $endgroup$
          – Bob Krueger
          12 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          +1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
          $endgroup$
          – Bob Krueger
          12 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          @JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
          $endgroup$
          – CopyPasteIt
          5 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          @JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
          $endgroup$
          – CopyPasteIt
          5 hours ago












          9












          $begingroup$

          The proof is not circular, the key is in the second sentence: Let N be the smallest positive integer with this property.



          We are allowed to say a least $N$ exists because of the well-ordering principle.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
            $endgroup$
            – Don Thousand
            yesterday






          • 3




            $begingroup$
            @Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
            $endgroup$
            – Robert Soupe
            yesterday






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
            $endgroup$
            – Nate Eldredge
            23 hours ago







          • 9




            $begingroup$
            @DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
            $endgroup$
            – Nate Eldredge
            23 hours ago






          • 4




            $begingroup$
            @NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
            $endgroup$
            – Kevin
            21 hours ago
















          9












          $begingroup$

          The proof is not circular, the key is in the second sentence: Let N be the smallest positive integer with this property.



          We are allowed to say a least $N$ exists because of the well-ordering principle.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
            $endgroup$
            – Don Thousand
            yesterday






          • 3




            $begingroup$
            @Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
            $endgroup$
            – Robert Soupe
            yesterday






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
            $endgroup$
            – Nate Eldredge
            23 hours ago







          • 9




            $begingroup$
            @DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
            $endgroup$
            – Nate Eldredge
            23 hours ago






          • 4




            $begingroup$
            @NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
            $endgroup$
            – Kevin
            21 hours ago














          9












          9








          9





          $begingroup$

          The proof is not circular, the key is in the second sentence: Let N be the smallest positive integer with this property.



          We are allowed to say a least $N$ exists because of the well-ordering principle.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          The proof is not circular, the key is in the second sentence: Let N be the smallest positive integer with this property.



          We are allowed to say a least $N$ exists because of the well-ordering principle.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered yesterday









          Edgar Jaramillo RodriguezEdgar Jaramillo Rodriguez

          1895




          1895







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
            $endgroup$
            – Don Thousand
            yesterday






          • 3




            $begingroup$
            @Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
            $endgroup$
            – Robert Soupe
            yesterday






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
            $endgroup$
            – Nate Eldredge
            23 hours ago







          • 9




            $begingroup$
            @DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
            $endgroup$
            – Nate Eldredge
            23 hours ago






          • 4




            $begingroup$
            @NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
            $endgroup$
            – Kevin
            21 hours ago













          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
            $endgroup$
            – Don Thousand
            yesterday






          • 3




            $begingroup$
            @Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
            $endgroup$
            – Robert Soupe
            yesterday






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
            $endgroup$
            – Nate Eldredge
            23 hours ago







          • 9




            $begingroup$
            @DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
            $endgroup$
            – Nate Eldredge
            23 hours ago






          • 4




            $begingroup$
            @NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
            $endgroup$
            – Kevin
            21 hours ago








          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
          $endgroup$
          – Don Thousand
          yesterday




          $begingroup$
          I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
          $endgroup$
          – Don Thousand
          yesterday




          3




          3




          $begingroup$
          @Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
          $endgroup$
          – Robert Soupe
          yesterday




          $begingroup$
          @Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
          $endgroup$
          – Robert Soupe
          yesterday




          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          @RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
          $endgroup$
          – Nate Eldredge
          23 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          @RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
          $endgroup$
          – Nate Eldredge
          23 hours ago





          9




          9




          $begingroup$
          @DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
          $endgroup$
          – Nate Eldredge
          23 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
          $endgroup$
          – Nate Eldredge
          23 hours ago




          4




          4




          $begingroup$
          @NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
          $endgroup$
          – Kevin
          21 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          @NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
          $endgroup$
          – Kevin
          21 hours ago












          4












          $begingroup$


          I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma.




          Because it does.

          It says so right in the first two sentences, which can be rephrased as:




          Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer that cannot be written as a product of primes.




          So yes, the proof assumes that all positive integers smaller than $N$ can be written as a product of primes.

          This is OK, though, because it is trivially true for the smallest integers: 1, 2. The proof builds on that to infer that no such an $N$ exists where the lemma is not true.






          share|cite|improve this answer








          New contributor




          walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          $endgroup$

















            4












            $begingroup$


            I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma.




            Because it does.

            It says so right in the first two sentences, which can be rephrased as:




            Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer that cannot be written as a product of primes.




            So yes, the proof assumes that all positive integers smaller than $N$ can be written as a product of primes.

            This is OK, though, because it is trivially true for the smallest integers: 1, 2. The proof builds on that to infer that no such an $N$ exists where the lemma is not true.






            share|cite|improve this answer








            New contributor




            walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
            Check out our Code of Conduct.






            $endgroup$















              4












              4








              4





              $begingroup$


              I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma.




              Because it does.

              It says so right in the first two sentences, which can be rephrased as:




              Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer that cannot be written as a product of primes.




              So yes, the proof assumes that all positive integers smaller than $N$ can be written as a product of primes.

              This is OK, though, because it is trivially true for the smallest integers: 1, 2. The proof builds on that to infer that no such an $N$ exists where the lemma is not true.






              share|cite|improve this answer








              New contributor




              walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              $endgroup$




              I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma.




              Because it does.

              It says so right in the first two sentences, which can be rephrased as:




              Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer that cannot be written as a product of primes.




              So yes, the proof assumes that all positive integers smaller than $N$ can be written as a product of primes.

              This is OK, though, because it is trivially true for the smallest integers: 1, 2. The proof builds on that to infer that no such an $N$ exists where the lemma is not true.







              share|cite|improve this answer








              New contributor




              walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.









              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer






              New contributor




              walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.









              answered 9 hours ago









              walenwalen

              1493




              1493




              New contributor




              walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.





              New contributor





              walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






              walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                  3












                  $begingroup$

                  I can definitely understand how this can feel a little off.



                  1) The lemma (as stated in the question) says all nonzero integers. Primes are integers and, by definition, cannot be products of primes. So, I think the lemma probably is actually more along the lines of: "all positive non-prime integers can be written as a product of primes".



                  2) Also, the statement "since 𝑚,𝑛 are positive and smaller than 𝑁 they must each be a product of primes" doesn't really explain why they must be a product of primes. Since, 𝑁 is the smallest positive non-prime integer that cannot be written as a product of primes (by supposition of the lemma), then 𝑚,𝑛 are either prime themselves or a product of primes (as they are less than 𝑁 and 𝑁 is the smallest number that isn't a product of primes). Either way, they will provide the primes necessary to create 𝑁, making 𝑁 able to be constructed as a product of primes.



                  Hopefully this helps to see why the proof by contradiction works.






                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                  $endgroup$












                  • $begingroup$
                    As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
                    $endgroup$
                    – Martin Kochanski
                    14 hours ago











                  • $begingroup$
                    @MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Especially Lime
                    12 hours ago















                  3












                  $begingroup$

                  I can definitely understand how this can feel a little off.



                  1) The lemma (as stated in the question) says all nonzero integers. Primes are integers and, by definition, cannot be products of primes. So, I think the lemma probably is actually more along the lines of: "all positive non-prime integers can be written as a product of primes".



                  2) Also, the statement "since 𝑚,𝑛 are positive and smaller than 𝑁 they must each be a product of primes" doesn't really explain why they must be a product of primes. Since, 𝑁 is the smallest positive non-prime integer that cannot be written as a product of primes (by supposition of the lemma), then 𝑚,𝑛 are either prime themselves or a product of primes (as they are less than 𝑁 and 𝑁 is the smallest number that isn't a product of primes). Either way, they will provide the primes necessary to create 𝑁, making 𝑁 able to be constructed as a product of primes.



                  Hopefully this helps to see why the proof by contradiction works.






                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                  $endgroup$












                  • $begingroup$
                    As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
                    $endgroup$
                    – Martin Kochanski
                    14 hours ago











                  • $begingroup$
                    @MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Especially Lime
                    12 hours ago













                  3












                  3








                  3





                  $begingroup$

                  I can definitely understand how this can feel a little off.



                  1) The lemma (as stated in the question) says all nonzero integers. Primes are integers and, by definition, cannot be products of primes. So, I think the lemma probably is actually more along the lines of: "all positive non-prime integers can be written as a product of primes".



                  2) Also, the statement "since 𝑚,𝑛 are positive and smaller than 𝑁 they must each be a product of primes" doesn't really explain why they must be a product of primes. Since, 𝑁 is the smallest positive non-prime integer that cannot be written as a product of primes (by supposition of the lemma), then 𝑚,𝑛 are either prime themselves or a product of primes (as they are less than 𝑁 and 𝑁 is the smallest number that isn't a product of primes). Either way, they will provide the primes necessary to create 𝑁, making 𝑁 able to be constructed as a product of primes.



                  Hopefully this helps to see why the proof by contradiction works.






                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                  $endgroup$



                  I can definitely understand how this can feel a little off.



                  1) The lemma (as stated in the question) says all nonzero integers. Primes are integers and, by definition, cannot be products of primes. So, I think the lemma probably is actually more along the lines of: "all positive non-prime integers can be written as a product of primes".



                  2) Also, the statement "since 𝑚,𝑛 are positive and smaller than 𝑁 they must each be a product of primes" doesn't really explain why they must be a product of primes. Since, 𝑁 is the smallest positive non-prime integer that cannot be written as a product of primes (by supposition of the lemma), then 𝑚,𝑛 are either prime themselves or a product of primes (as they are less than 𝑁 and 𝑁 is the smallest number that isn't a product of primes). Either way, they will provide the primes necessary to create 𝑁, making 𝑁 able to be constructed as a product of primes.



                  Hopefully this helps to see why the proof by contradiction works.







                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  New contributor




                  dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer






                  New contributor




                  dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.









                  answered 21 hours ago









                  dudemandudeman

                  1393




                  1393




                  New contributor




                  dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                  New contributor





                  dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                  dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.











                  • $begingroup$
                    As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
                    $endgroup$
                    – Martin Kochanski
                    14 hours ago











                  • $begingroup$
                    @MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Especially Lime
                    12 hours ago
















                  • $begingroup$
                    As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
                    $endgroup$
                    – Martin Kochanski
                    14 hours ago











                  • $begingroup$
                    @MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Especially Lime
                    12 hours ago















                  $begingroup$
                  As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
                  $endgroup$
                  – Martin Kochanski
                  14 hours ago





                  $begingroup$
                  As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
                  $endgroup$
                  – Martin Kochanski
                  14 hours ago













                  $begingroup$
                  @MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Especially Lime
                  12 hours ago




                  $begingroup$
                  @MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Especially Lime
                  12 hours ago











                  2












                  $begingroup$

                  A proof by induction has base case(s), Let m and n be said base cases. if it's true for m and true for n (not necessarily distinct), then because it's a product, it follows for mn. All the proof supposes, is N=mn for some base case ( primes or prime powers to start, in these cases) with m and n proved. Then it follows for N, which by saying N which
                  originally was consider the least element of a set of counterexamples, has one, it eliminates all possible least elements for the set we originally supposed existed.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$

















                    2












                    $begingroup$

                    A proof by induction has base case(s), Let m and n be said base cases. if it's true for m and true for n (not necessarily distinct), then because it's a product, it follows for mn. All the proof supposes, is N=mn for some base case ( primes or prime powers to start, in these cases) with m and n proved. Then it follows for N, which by saying N which
                    originally was consider the least element of a set of counterexamples, has one, it eliminates all possible least elements for the set we originally supposed existed.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$















                      2












                      2








                      2





                      $begingroup$

                      A proof by induction has base case(s), Let m and n be said base cases. if it's true for m and true for n (not necessarily distinct), then because it's a product, it follows for mn. All the proof supposes, is N=mn for some base case ( primes or prime powers to start, in these cases) with m and n proved. Then it follows for N, which by saying N which
                      originally was consider the least element of a set of counterexamples, has one, it eliminates all possible least elements for the set we originally supposed existed.






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      A proof by induction has base case(s), Let m and n be said base cases. if it's true for m and true for n (not necessarily distinct), then because it's a product, it follows for mn. All the proof supposes, is N=mn for some base case ( primes or prime powers to start, in these cases) with m and n proved. Then it follows for N, which by saying N which
                      originally was consider the least element of a set of counterexamples, has one, it eliminates all possible least elements for the set we originally supposed existed.







                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered 22 hours ago









                      Roddy MacPheeRoddy MacPhee

                      573118




                      573118





















                          2












                          $begingroup$

                          An integer $n$ is said to be a composite if it can be expressed as the product of two integers $a$ and $b$ with $a notin -1,0,1$ and $b notin -1,0,1$.



                          An integers $p notin -1,0,1$ that is not a composite is called a prime number.



                          Recall the method of infinite descent used in mathematical proofs.



                          Suppose $m notin -1,0,1$ and it can't be expressed as a product of primes. If $m lt 0$ then it is certainly true that the positive number $-m$ can't be factored into primes. So the existence of $m$ allows us to assert that there are positive integers greater than $1$ that can't be factored into a product of prime numbers.



                          So using infinite descent, we have a minimal $n > 1$ that can't be written as a product of primes. In particular, $n$ can't be a prime. But then it must be a composite, and we can write



                          $quad n = st text with s,t gt 1$



                          Note: The composite factors $s$ and $t$ must both be positive or negative.

                          If they are both negative, replace $s$ with $-s$ and $t$ with $-t$.



                          But then $s lt n$ and so it can be written as a product of primes. Similarly, $t$ can be written as a product of primes. But then $n$ itself is a product of primes. But this is not possible by our choice of $n$. So the initial assumption of the existence of $m notin -1,0,1$ with no prime factorization leads to a contradiction.



                          So every $n notin -1,0,1$ has a prime factorization.






                          share|cite|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$

















                            2












                            $begingroup$

                            An integer $n$ is said to be a composite if it can be expressed as the product of two integers $a$ and $b$ with $a notin -1,0,1$ and $b notin -1,0,1$.



                            An integers $p notin -1,0,1$ that is not a composite is called a prime number.



                            Recall the method of infinite descent used in mathematical proofs.



                            Suppose $m notin -1,0,1$ and it can't be expressed as a product of primes. If $m lt 0$ then it is certainly true that the positive number $-m$ can't be factored into primes. So the existence of $m$ allows us to assert that there are positive integers greater than $1$ that can't be factored into a product of prime numbers.



                            So using infinite descent, we have a minimal $n > 1$ that can't be written as a product of primes. In particular, $n$ can't be a prime. But then it must be a composite, and we can write



                            $quad n = st text with s,t gt 1$



                            Note: The composite factors $s$ and $t$ must both be positive or negative.

                            If they are both negative, replace $s$ with $-s$ and $t$ with $-t$.



                            But then $s lt n$ and so it can be written as a product of primes. Similarly, $t$ can be written as a product of primes. But then $n$ itself is a product of primes. But this is not possible by our choice of $n$. So the initial assumption of the existence of $m notin -1,0,1$ with no prime factorization leads to a contradiction.



                            So every $n notin -1,0,1$ has a prime factorization.






                            share|cite|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$















                              2












                              2








                              2





                              $begingroup$

                              An integer $n$ is said to be a composite if it can be expressed as the product of two integers $a$ and $b$ with $a notin -1,0,1$ and $b notin -1,0,1$.



                              An integers $p notin -1,0,1$ that is not a composite is called a prime number.



                              Recall the method of infinite descent used in mathematical proofs.



                              Suppose $m notin -1,0,1$ and it can't be expressed as a product of primes. If $m lt 0$ then it is certainly true that the positive number $-m$ can't be factored into primes. So the existence of $m$ allows us to assert that there are positive integers greater than $1$ that can't be factored into a product of prime numbers.



                              So using infinite descent, we have a minimal $n > 1$ that can't be written as a product of primes. In particular, $n$ can't be a prime. But then it must be a composite, and we can write



                              $quad n = st text with s,t gt 1$



                              Note: The composite factors $s$ and $t$ must both be positive or negative.

                              If they are both negative, replace $s$ with $-s$ and $t$ with $-t$.



                              But then $s lt n$ and so it can be written as a product of primes. Similarly, $t$ can be written as a product of primes. But then $n$ itself is a product of primes. But this is not possible by our choice of $n$. So the initial assumption of the existence of $m notin -1,0,1$ with no prime factorization leads to a contradiction.



                              So every $n notin -1,0,1$ has a prime factorization.






                              share|cite|improve this answer











                              $endgroup$



                              An integer $n$ is said to be a composite if it can be expressed as the product of two integers $a$ and $b$ with $a notin -1,0,1$ and $b notin -1,0,1$.



                              An integers $p notin -1,0,1$ that is not a composite is called a prime number.



                              Recall the method of infinite descent used in mathematical proofs.



                              Suppose $m notin -1,0,1$ and it can't be expressed as a product of primes. If $m lt 0$ then it is certainly true that the positive number $-m$ can't be factored into primes. So the existence of $m$ allows us to assert that there are positive integers greater than $1$ that can't be factored into a product of prime numbers.



                              So using infinite descent, we have a minimal $n > 1$ that can't be written as a product of primes. In particular, $n$ can't be a prime. But then it must be a composite, and we can write



                              $quad n = st text with s,t gt 1$



                              Note: The composite factors $s$ and $t$ must both be positive or negative.

                              If they are both negative, replace $s$ with $-s$ and $t$ with $-t$.



                              But then $s lt n$ and so it can be written as a product of primes. Similarly, $t$ can be written as a product of primes. But then $n$ itself is a product of primes. But this is not possible by our choice of $n$. So the initial assumption of the existence of $m notin -1,0,1$ with no prime factorization leads to a contradiction.



                              So every $n notin -1,0,1$ has a prime factorization.







                              share|cite|improve this answer














                              share|cite|improve this answer



                              share|cite|improve this answer








                              edited 7 hours ago

























                              answered 8 hours ago









                              CopyPasteItCopyPasteIt

                              4,2531728




                              4,2531728





















                                  1












                                  $begingroup$

                                  There is a property of the natural numbers called well-order. A set is well-ordered if every non-empty subset has a least element. So given any property $P$:



                                  1. The set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false is either empty or has a least element.


                                  2. Suppose there is some number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0)$ is false. If $n_0$ is the least such number, then obviously $P(n_0-1)$ is true [1] (otherwise $n_0-1$ would be a number for which $P$ is false that is smaller than $n_0$, and so $n_0$ wouldn't be the smallest such number).


                                  3. Thus, if we can prove that there is no number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0-1)$ is true and $P(n_0)$ is false (i.e. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$", then we have shown that the set of numbers for which $P$ is false has no least element.


                                  4. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$" is equivalent to "$forall n_0: (neg P(n_0-1) lor P(n_0))$", which is in turn equivalent to "$forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$".


                                  5. Thus, if we can prove $forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$, then it follows that the set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false does not have a least element. Since all non-empty sets of natural numbers have a least element, this set must be empty. That is, there are no numbers for which $P(n)$ is false, i.e. $P(n)$ is true for all $n$.


                                  [1] There is also the possibility that $n_0-1$ isn't a natural number, which happens when $n_0=0$. Dealing with this possibility requires proving that $P(0)$ is true separately, which is why induction proofs require a base case.



                                  So that's the concept behind induction proofs: if the proposition isn't true for all numbers, then there is a non-empty set of numbers for which it is false, which has to have a least element, which means that we have to go from "true" to "false" at some point. Inductive proofs thus look a bit like circular reasoning: you start assuming that the proposition is true, and use that to prove that the proposition is true. But what makes it non-fallacious is that you prove that the proposition is true for a later number by assuming that it's true for an earlier number.



                                  The proof that you cite is using the same basic principle as induction, namely the well-order of the natural numbers, but it is skipping the one-by-one sort of process that induction proofs usually use. Instead of saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n_0-1)$ being true leads to a contradiction", it's saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n)$ being true for $n<n_0$ leads to a contradiction". Like a standard induction proof, it superficially looks like circular reasoning, but isn't, because it's proving that the proposition is true for $N$ using the fact that it's true for smaller numbers.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$

















                                    1












                                    $begingroup$

                                    There is a property of the natural numbers called well-order. A set is well-ordered if every non-empty subset has a least element. So given any property $P$:



                                    1. The set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false is either empty or has a least element.


                                    2. Suppose there is some number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0)$ is false. If $n_0$ is the least such number, then obviously $P(n_0-1)$ is true [1] (otherwise $n_0-1$ would be a number for which $P$ is false that is smaller than $n_0$, and so $n_0$ wouldn't be the smallest such number).


                                    3. Thus, if we can prove that there is no number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0-1)$ is true and $P(n_0)$ is false (i.e. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$", then we have shown that the set of numbers for which $P$ is false has no least element.


                                    4. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$" is equivalent to "$forall n_0: (neg P(n_0-1) lor P(n_0))$", which is in turn equivalent to "$forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$".


                                    5. Thus, if we can prove $forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$, then it follows that the set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false does not have a least element. Since all non-empty sets of natural numbers have a least element, this set must be empty. That is, there are no numbers for which $P(n)$ is false, i.e. $P(n)$ is true for all $n$.


                                    [1] There is also the possibility that $n_0-1$ isn't a natural number, which happens when $n_0=0$. Dealing with this possibility requires proving that $P(0)$ is true separately, which is why induction proofs require a base case.



                                    So that's the concept behind induction proofs: if the proposition isn't true for all numbers, then there is a non-empty set of numbers for which it is false, which has to have a least element, which means that we have to go from "true" to "false" at some point. Inductive proofs thus look a bit like circular reasoning: you start assuming that the proposition is true, and use that to prove that the proposition is true. But what makes it non-fallacious is that you prove that the proposition is true for a later number by assuming that it's true for an earlier number.



                                    The proof that you cite is using the same basic principle as induction, namely the well-order of the natural numbers, but it is skipping the one-by-one sort of process that induction proofs usually use. Instead of saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n_0-1)$ being true leads to a contradiction", it's saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n)$ being true for $n<n_0$ leads to a contradiction". Like a standard induction proof, it superficially looks like circular reasoning, but isn't, because it's proving that the proposition is true for $N$ using the fact that it's true for smaller numbers.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$















                                      1












                                      1








                                      1





                                      $begingroup$

                                      There is a property of the natural numbers called well-order. A set is well-ordered if every non-empty subset has a least element. So given any property $P$:



                                      1. The set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false is either empty or has a least element.


                                      2. Suppose there is some number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0)$ is false. If $n_0$ is the least such number, then obviously $P(n_0-1)$ is true [1] (otherwise $n_0-1$ would be a number for which $P$ is false that is smaller than $n_0$, and so $n_0$ wouldn't be the smallest such number).


                                      3. Thus, if we can prove that there is no number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0-1)$ is true and $P(n_0)$ is false (i.e. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$", then we have shown that the set of numbers for which $P$ is false has no least element.


                                      4. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$" is equivalent to "$forall n_0: (neg P(n_0-1) lor P(n_0))$", which is in turn equivalent to "$forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$".


                                      5. Thus, if we can prove $forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$, then it follows that the set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false does not have a least element. Since all non-empty sets of natural numbers have a least element, this set must be empty. That is, there are no numbers for which $P(n)$ is false, i.e. $P(n)$ is true for all $n$.


                                      [1] There is also the possibility that $n_0-1$ isn't a natural number, which happens when $n_0=0$. Dealing with this possibility requires proving that $P(0)$ is true separately, which is why induction proofs require a base case.



                                      So that's the concept behind induction proofs: if the proposition isn't true for all numbers, then there is a non-empty set of numbers for which it is false, which has to have a least element, which means that we have to go from "true" to "false" at some point. Inductive proofs thus look a bit like circular reasoning: you start assuming that the proposition is true, and use that to prove that the proposition is true. But what makes it non-fallacious is that you prove that the proposition is true for a later number by assuming that it's true for an earlier number.



                                      The proof that you cite is using the same basic principle as induction, namely the well-order of the natural numbers, but it is skipping the one-by-one sort of process that induction proofs usually use. Instead of saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n_0-1)$ being true leads to a contradiction", it's saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n)$ being true for $n<n_0$ leads to a contradiction". Like a standard induction proof, it superficially looks like circular reasoning, but isn't, because it's proving that the proposition is true for $N$ using the fact that it's true for smaller numbers.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$



                                      There is a property of the natural numbers called well-order. A set is well-ordered if every non-empty subset has a least element. So given any property $P$:



                                      1. The set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false is either empty or has a least element.


                                      2. Suppose there is some number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0)$ is false. If $n_0$ is the least such number, then obviously $P(n_0-1)$ is true [1] (otherwise $n_0-1$ would be a number for which $P$ is false that is smaller than $n_0$, and so $n_0$ wouldn't be the smallest such number).


                                      3. Thus, if we can prove that there is no number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0-1)$ is true and $P(n_0)$ is false (i.e. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$", then we have shown that the set of numbers for which $P$ is false has no least element.


                                      4. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$" is equivalent to "$forall n_0: (neg P(n_0-1) lor P(n_0))$", which is in turn equivalent to "$forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$".


                                      5. Thus, if we can prove $forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$, then it follows that the set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false does not have a least element. Since all non-empty sets of natural numbers have a least element, this set must be empty. That is, there are no numbers for which $P(n)$ is false, i.e. $P(n)$ is true for all $n$.


                                      [1] There is also the possibility that $n_0-1$ isn't a natural number, which happens when $n_0=0$. Dealing with this possibility requires proving that $P(0)$ is true separately, which is why induction proofs require a base case.



                                      So that's the concept behind induction proofs: if the proposition isn't true for all numbers, then there is a non-empty set of numbers for which it is false, which has to have a least element, which means that we have to go from "true" to "false" at some point. Inductive proofs thus look a bit like circular reasoning: you start assuming that the proposition is true, and use that to prove that the proposition is true. But what makes it non-fallacious is that you prove that the proposition is true for a later number by assuming that it's true for an earlier number.



                                      The proof that you cite is using the same basic principle as induction, namely the well-order of the natural numbers, but it is skipping the one-by-one sort of process that induction proofs usually use. Instead of saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n_0-1)$ being true leads to a contradiction", it's saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n)$ being true for $n<n_0$ leads to a contradiction". Like a standard induction proof, it superficially looks like circular reasoning, but isn't, because it's proving that the proposition is true for $N$ using the fact that it's true for smaller numbers.







                                      share|cite|improve this answer












                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                      share|cite|improve this answer










                                      answered 4 hours ago









                                      AcccumulationAcccumulation

                                      7,1452619




                                      7,1452619




















                                          Alena Gusakov is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









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                                          Alena Gusakov is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                                          Alena Gusakov is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











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