Proof of Lemma: Every integer can be written as a product of primesWhy is complete strong induction a valid proof method and not need to explicitly proof the base cases?Confused About Step in Proof of Divergence of $sum frac1p$Complete induction proof that every $n > 1$ can be written as a product of primesInduction Proof - Primes and Euclid's LemmaQuestion about a proof of FTA in A classical Introduction to modern number theoryEuclid's proof of Infinitude of Primes: If a prime divides an integer, why would it have to divide 1?Proof or disproof that every integer can be written as the sum of a prime and a square.Proof by well ordering: Every positive integer greater than one can be factored as a product of primes.Difficult Q: Show that every integer $n$ can be written in the form $n = a^2 b$….product of distinct primesNumber Theory Proof: Prove that if w is an extended integer with |N(w)| > 1 , then w can be written as a product of primes in the extended integers.Why is the proof not right ? Every positive integer can be written as a product of primes?
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Proof of Lemma: Every integer can be written as a product of primes
Why is complete strong induction a valid proof method and not need to explicitly proof the base cases?Confused About Step in Proof of Divergence of $sum frac1p$Complete induction proof that every $n > 1$ can be written as a product of primesInduction Proof - Primes and Euclid's LemmaQuestion about a proof of FTA in A classical Introduction to modern number theoryEuclid's proof of Infinitude of Primes: If a prime divides an integer, why would it have to divide 1?Proof or disproof that every integer can be written as the sum of a prime and a square.Proof by well ordering: Every positive integer greater than one can be factored as a product of primes.Difficult Q: Show that every integer $n$ can be written in the form $n = a^2 b$….product of distinct primesNumber Theory Proof: Prove that if w is an extended integer with |N(w)| > 1 , then w can be written as a product of primes in the extended integers.Why is the proof not right ? Every positive integer can be written as a product of primes?
$begingroup$
I'm new to number theory. This might be kind of a silly question, so I'm sorry if it is.
I encountered the classic lemma about every nonzero integer being the product of primes in a textbook about number theory. In this textbook there is also a proof for it provided, and I'd like to understand why it is that the proof actually works.
The proof is as follows:
Assume, for contradiction, that there is an integer $N$ that cannot be written as a product of primes. Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer with this property. Since $N$ cannot itself be prime we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. However, since $m$, $n$ are positive and smaller than $N$ they must each be a product of primes. But then so is $N = mn$. This is a contradiction.
I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma. I think this line of reasoning could be strengthened using induction, and I've seen other proofs of this lemma that use induction. Can someone help me out? What am I missing and why do I think that this proof of the lemma is circular?
Edit: I'd like to add that this textbook states that if $p$ is a prime number, then so is $-p$. That's where my confusion stems from. The textbook is A Modern Introduction to Classical Number Theory by Ireland and Rosen.
elementary-number-theory prime-numbers proof-explanation integers
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I'm new to number theory. This might be kind of a silly question, so I'm sorry if it is.
I encountered the classic lemma about every nonzero integer being the product of primes in a textbook about number theory. In this textbook there is also a proof for it provided, and I'd like to understand why it is that the proof actually works.
The proof is as follows:
Assume, for contradiction, that there is an integer $N$ that cannot be written as a product of primes. Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer with this property. Since $N$ cannot itself be prime we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. However, since $m$, $n$ are positive and smaller than $N$ they must each be a product of primes. But then so is $N = mn$. This is a contradiction.
I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma. I think this line of reasoning could be strengthened using induction, and I've seen other proofs of this lemma that use induction. Can someone help me out? What am I missing and why do I think that this proof of the lemma is circular?
Edit: I'd like to add that this textbook states that if $p$ is a prime number, then so is $-p$. That's where my confusion stems from. The textbook is A Modern Introduction to Classical Number Theory by Ireland and Rosen.
elementary-number-theory prime-numbers proof-explanation integers
New contributor
Alena Gusakov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
2
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That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
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– lulu
yesterday
1
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There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
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– José Carlos Santos
yesterday
4
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It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
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– Bill Dubuque
22 hours ago
2
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$-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
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– Gerrit0
19 hours ago
1
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@AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
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– Alena Gusakov
8 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
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I'm new to number theory. This might be kind of a silly question, so I'm sorry if it is.
I encountered the classic lemma about every nonzero integer being the product of primes in a textbook about number theory. In this textbook there is also a proof for it provided, and I'd like to understand why it is that the proof actually works.
The proof is as follows:
Assume, for contradiction, that there is an integer $N$ that cannot be written as a product of primes. Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer with this property. Since $N$ cannot itself be prime we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. However, since $m$, $n$ are positive and smaller than $N$ they must each be a product of primes. But then so is $N = mn$. This is a contradiction.
I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma. I think this line of reasoning could be strengthened using induction, and I've seen other proofs of this lemma that use induction. Can someone help me out? What am I missing and why do I think that this proof of the lemma is circular?
Edit: I'd like to add that this textbook states that if $p$ is a prime number, then so is $-p$. That's where my confusion stems from. The textbook is A Modern Introduction to Classical Number Theory by Ireland and Rosen.
elementary-number-theory prime-numbers proof-explanation integers
New contributor
Alena Gusakov is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
I'm new to number theory. This might be kind of a silly question, so I'm sorry if it is.
I encountered the classic lemma about every nonzero integer being the product of primes in a textbook about number theory. In this textbook there is also a proof for it provided, and I'd like to understand why it is that the proof actually works.
The proof is as follows:
Assume, for contradiction, that there is an integer $N$ that cannot be written as a product of primes. Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer with this property. Since $N$ cannot itself be prime we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. However, since $m$, $n$ are positive and smaller than $N$ they must each be a product of primes. But then so is $N = mn$. This is a contradiction.
I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma. I think this line of reasoning could be strengthened using induction, and I've seen other proofs of this lemma that use induction. Can someone help me out? What am I missing and why do I think that this proof of the lemma is circular?
Edit: I'd like to add that this textbook states that if $p$ is a prime number, then so is $-p$. That's where my confusion stems from. The textbook is A Modern Introduction to Classical Number Theory by Ireland and Rosen.
elementary-number-theory prime-numbers proof-explanation integers
elementary-number-theory prime-numbers proof-explanation integers
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edited 2 hours ago
mrtaurho
6,12271641
6,12271641
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asked yesterday
Alena GusakovAlena Gusakov
515
515
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2
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That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
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– lulu
yesterday
1
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There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
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– José Carlos Santos
yesterday
4
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It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
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– Bill Dubuque
22 hours ago
2
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$-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
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– Gerrit0
19 hours ago
1
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@AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
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– Alena Gusakov
8 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
2
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That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
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– lulu
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
yesterday
4
$begingroup$
It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
22 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
$-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
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– Gerrit0
19 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
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– Alena Gusakov
8 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
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– lulu
yesterday
$begingroup$
That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
$endgroup$
– lulu
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
yesterday
$begingroup$
There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
yesterday
4
4
$begingroup$
It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
22 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
$-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
$endgroup$
– Gerrit0
19 hours ago
$begingroup$
$-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
$endgroup$
– Gerrit0
19 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
$endgroup$
– Alena Gusakov
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
$endgroup$
– Alena Gusakov
8 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
7 Answers
7
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Although the proof by contradiction is correct, your feeling of unease is fine, because the direct proof by induction is so much clearer:
Take an integer $N$. If $N$ is prime, there is nothing to prove. Otherwise, we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. By induction, since $m, n$ are smaller than $N$, they must each be a product of primes. Then so is $N = mn$. Done.
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This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
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– John Coleman
13 hours ago
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+1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
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– Bob Krueger
12 hours ago
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@JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
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– CopyPasteIt
5 hours ago
add a comment |
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The proof is not circular, the key is in the second sentence: Let N be the smallest positive integer with this property.
We are allowed to say a least $N$ exists because of the well-ordering principle.
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I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
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– Don Thousand
yesterday
3
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@Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
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– Robert Soupe
yesterday
1
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@RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
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– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
9
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@DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
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– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
4
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@NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
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– Kevin
21 hours ago
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show 2 more comments
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I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma.
Because it does.
It says so right in the first two sentences, which can be rephrased as:
Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer that cannot be written as a product of primes.
So yes, the proof assumes that all positive integers smaller than $N$ can be written as a product of primes.
This is OK, though, because it is trivially true for the smallest integers: 1, 2. The proof builds on that to infer that no such an $N$ exists where the lemma is not true.
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add a comment |
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I can definitely understand how this can feel a little off.
1) The lemma (as stated in the question) says all nonzero integers. Primes are integers and, by definition, cannot be products of primes. So, I think the lemma probably is actually more along the lines of: "all positive non-prime integers can be written as a product of primes".
2) Also, the statement "since 𝑚,𝑛 are positive and smaller than 𝑁 they must each be a product of primes" doesn't really explain why they must be a product of primes. Since, 𝑁 is the smallest positive non-prime integer that cannot be written as a product of primes (by supposition of the lemma), then 𝑚,𝑛 are either prime themselves or a product of primes (as they are less than 𝑁 and 𝑁 is the smallest number that isn't a product of primes). Either way, they will provide the primes necessary to create 𝑁, making 𝑁 able to be constructed as a product of primes.
Hopefully this helps to see why the proof by contradiction works.
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As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
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– Martin Kochanski
14 hours ago
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@MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
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– Especially Lime
12 hours ago
add a comment |
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A proof by induction has base case(s), Let m and n be said base cases. if it's true for m and true for n (not necessarily distinct), then because it's a product, it follows for mn. All the proof supposes, is N=mn for some base case ( primes or prime powers to start, in these cases) with m and n proved. Then it follows for N, which by saying N which
originally was consider the least element of a set of counterexamples, has one, it eliminates all possible least elements for the set we originally supposed existed.
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add a comment |
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An integer $n$ is said to be a composite if it can be expressed as the product of two integers $a$ and $b$ with $a notin -1,0,1$ and $b notin -1,0,1$.
An integers $p notin -1,0,1$ that is not a composite is called a prime number.
Recall the method of infinite descent used in mathematical proofs.
Suppose $m notin -1,0,1$ and it can't be expressed as a product of primes. If $m lt 0$ then it is certainly true that the positive number $-m$ can't be factored into primes. So the existence of $m$ allows us to assert that there are positive integers greater than $1$ that can't be factored into a product of prime numbers.
So using infinite descent, we have a minimal $n > 1$ that can't be written as a product of primes. In particular, $n$ can't be a prime. But then it must be a composite, and we can write
$quad n = st text with s,t gt 1$
Note: The composite factors $s$ and $t$ must both be positive or negative.
If they are both negative, replace $s$ with $-s$ and $t$ with $-t$.
But then $s lt n$ and so it can be written as a product of primes. Similarly, $t$ can be written as a product of primes. But then $n$ itself is a product of primes. But this is not possible by our choice of $n$. So the initial assumption of the existence of $m notin -1,0,1$ with no prime factorization leads to a contradiction.
So every $n notin -1,0,1$ has a prime factorization.
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add a comment |
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There is a property of the natural numbers called well-order. A set is well-ordered if every non-empty subset has a least element. So given any property $P$:
The set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false is either empty or has a least element.
Suppose there is some number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0)$ is false. If $n_0$ is the least such number, then obviously $P(n_0-1)$ is true [1] (otherwise $n_0-1$ would be a number for which $P$ is false that is smaller than $n_0$, and so $n_0$ wouldn't be the smallest such number).
Thus, if we can prove that there is no number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0-1)$ is true and $P(n_0)$ is false (i.e. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$", then we have shown that the set of numbers for which $P$ is false has no least element.
"$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$" is equivalent to "$forall n_0: (neg P(n_0-1) lor P(n_0))$", which is in turn equivalent to "$forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$".
Thus, if we can prove $forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$, then it follows that the set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false does not have a least element. Since all non-empty sets of natural numbers have a least element, this set must be empty. That is, there are no numbers for which $P(n)$ is false, i.e. $P(n)$ is true for all $n$.
[1] There is also the possibility that $n_0-1$ isn't a natural number, which happens when $n_0=0$. Dealing with this possibility requires proving that $P(0)$ is true separately, which is why induction proofs require a base case.
So that's the concept behind induction proofs: if the proposition isn't true for all numbers, then there is a non-empty set of numbers for which it is false, which has to have a least element, which means that we have to go from "true" to "false" at some point. Inductive proofs thus look a bit like circular reasoning: you start assuming that the proposition is true, and use that to prove that the proposition is true. But what makes it non-fallacious is that you prove that the proposition is true for a later number by assuming that it's true for an earlier number.
The proof that you cite is using the same basic principle as induction, namely the well-order of the natural numbers, but it is skipping the one-by-one sort of process that induction proofs usually use. Instead of saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n_0-1)$ being true leads to a contradiction", it's saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n)$ being true for $n<n_0$ leads to a contradiction". Like a standard induction proof, it superficially looks like circular reasoning, but isn't, because it's proving that the proposition is true for $N$ using the fact that it's true for smaller numbers.
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Although the proof by contradiction is correct, your feeling of unease is fine, because the direct proof by induction is so much clearer:
Take an integer $N$. If $N$ is prime, there is nothing to prove. Otherwise, we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. By induction, since $m, n$ are smaller than $N$, they must each be a product of primes. Then so is $N = mn$. Done.
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10
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This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
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– John Coleman
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
$endgroup$
– Bob Krueger
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
$endgroup$
– CopyPasteIt
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Although the proof by contradiction is correct, your feeling of unease is fine, because the direct proof by induction is so much clearer:
Take an integer $N$. If $N$ is prime, there is nothing to prove. Otherwise, we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. By induction, since $m, n$ are smaller than $N$, they must each be a product of primes. Then so is $N = mn$. Done.
$endgroup$
10
$begingroup$
This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
$endgroup$
– John Coleman
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
$endgroup$
– Bob Krueger
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
$endgroup$
– CopyPasteIt
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Although the proof by contradiction is correct, your feeling of unease is fine, because the direct proof by induction is so much clearer:
Take an integer $N$. If $N$ is prime, there is nothing to prove. Otherwise, we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. By induction, since $m, n$ are smaller than $N$, they must each be a product of primes. Then so is $N = mn$. Done.
$endgroup$
Although the proof by contradiction is correct, your feeling of unease is fine, because the direct proof by induction is so much clearer:
Take an integer $N$. If $N$ is prime, there is nothing to prove. Otherwise, we must have $N = mn$, where $1 < m, n < N$. By induction, since $m, n$ are smaller than $N$, they must each be a product of primes. Then so is $N = mn$. Done.
answered yesterday
lhflhf
167k11172403
167k11172403
10
$begingroup$
This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
$endgroup$
– John Coleman
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
$endgroup$
– Bob Krueger
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
$endgroup$
– CopyPasteIt
5 hours ago
add a comment |
10
$begingroup$
This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
$endgroup$
– John Coleman
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
$endgroup$
– Bob Krueger
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
$endgroup$
– CopyPasteIt
5 hours ago
10
10
$begingroup$
This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
$endgroup$
– John Coleman
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is equivalent, so how is it "so much clearer"? Personally, I find the original clearer.
$endgroup$
– John Coleman
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
$endgroup$
– Bob Krueger
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 for “the direct proof by induction is so much clearer”. I’ve seen so many unnecessary proofs by induction.
$endgroup$
– Bob Krueger
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
$endgroup$
– CopyPasteIt
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JohnColeman Also, the OP might be interested in how the infinite descent method has been 'pushed' in number theory. And Euclid had no problem with it! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_infinite_descent#Number_theory
$endgroup$
– CopyPasteIt
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The proof is not circular, the key is in the second sentence: Let N be the smallest positive integer with this property.
We are allowed to say a least $N$ exists because of the well-ordering principle.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
$endgroup$
– Don Thousand
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
@Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
$endgroup$
– Robert Soupe
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
9
$begingroup$
@DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
@NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
$endgroup$
– Kevin
21 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The proof is not circular, the key is in the second sentence: Let N be the smallest positive integer with this property.
We are allowed to say a least $N$ exists because of the well-ordering principle.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
$endgroup$
– Don Thousand
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
@Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
$endgroup$
– Robert Soupe
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
9
$begingroup$
@DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
@NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
$endgroup$
– Kevin
21 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The proof is not circular, the key is in the second sentence: Let N be the smallest positive integer with this property.
We are allowed to say a least $N$ exists because of the well-ordering principle.
$endgroup$
The proof is not circular, the key is in the second sentence: Let N be the smallest positive integer with this property.
We are allowed to say a least $N$ exists because of the well-ordering principle.
answered yesterday
Edgar Jaramillo RodriguezEdgar Jaramillo Rodriguez
1895
1895
1
$begingroup$
I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
$endgroup$
– Don Thousand
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
@Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
$endgroup$
– Robert Soupe
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
9
$begingroup$
@DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
@NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
$endgroup$
– Kevin
21 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1
$begingroup$
I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
$endgroup$
– Don Thousand
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
@Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
$endgroup$
– Robert Soupe
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
9
$begingroup$
@DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
4
$begingroup$
@NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
$endgroup$
– Kevin
21 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
$endgroup$
– Don Thousand
yesterday
$begingroup$
I don't know if it's because of the well-ordering principle ... that's like using a hammer to slice through butter. One does not need the full strength of the AOC to prove such a simple statement.
$endgroup$
– Don Thousand
yesterday
3
3
$begingroup$
@Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
$endgroup$
– Robert Soupe
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Don What's AOC? I presume you're not talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
$endgroup$
– Robert Soupe
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
@RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RobertSoupe: Axiom of choice. The more usual abbreviation is AC.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
9
9
$begingroup$
@DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
@DonThousand: I think "well-ordering principle" here refers to the statement "the usual ordering on the natural numbers is a well order". The Axiom of Choice equivalent is "every set admits an ordering which is a well order" - that wouldn't really even help with this proof, since it would only tell us that there is some ordering of the natural numbers which is a well order - it doesn't tell us that the usual ordering is one.
$endgroup$
– Nate Eldredge
23 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
@NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
$endgroup$
– Kevin
21 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NateEldredge: Indeed, the well-ordering principle (not the similarly-named well-ordering theorem) is equivalent to induction (and probably also to infinite descent, but I haven't worked through that one yet), so if you disallow WOP, then you are going to have a hard time proving a lot of things.
$endgroup$
– Kevin
21 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma.
Because it does.
It says so right in the first two sentences, which can be rephrased as:
Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer that cannot be written as a product of primes.
So yes, the proof assumes that all positive integers smaller than $N$ can be written as a product of primes.
This is OK, though, because it is trivially true for the smallest integers: 1, 2. The proof builds on that to infer that no such an $N$ exists where the lemma is not true.
New contributor
walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma.
Because it does.
It says so right in the first two sentences, which can be rephrased as:
Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer that cannot be written as a product of primes.
So yes, the proof assumes that all positive integers smaller than $N$ can be written as a product of primes.
This is OK, though, because it is trivially true for the smallest integers: 1, 2. The proof builds on that to infer that no such an $N$ exists where the lemma is not true.
New contributor
walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma.
Because it does.
It says so right in the first two sentences, which can be rephrased as:
Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer that cannot be written as a product of primes.
So yes, the proof assumes that all positive integers smaller than $N$ can be written as a product of primes.
This is OK, though, because it is trivially true for the smallest integers: 1, 2. The proof builds on that to infer that no such an $N$ exists where the lemma is not true.
New contributor
walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
I feel like this proof kind of presupposes the lemma.
Because it does.
It says so right in the first two sentences, which can be rephrased as:
Let $N$ be the smallest positive integer that cannot be written as a product of primes.
So yes, the proof assumes that all positive integers smaller than $N$ can be written as a product of primes.
This is OK, though, because it is trivially true for the smallest integers: 1, 2. The proof builds on that to infer that no such an $N$ exists where the lemma is not true.
New contributor
walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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answered 9 hours ago
walenwalen
1493
1493
New contributor
walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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walen is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I can definitely understand how this can feel a little off.
1) The lemma (as stated in the question) says all nonzero integers. Primes are integers and, by definition, cannot be products of primes. So, I think the lemma probably is actually more along the lines of: "all positive non-prime integers can be written as a product of primes".
2) Also, the statement "since 𝑚,𝑛 are positive and smaller than 𝑁 they must each be a product of primes" doesn't really explain why they must be a product of primes. Since, 𝑁 is the smallest positive non-prime integer that cannot be written as a product of primes (by supposition of the lemma), then 𝑚,𝑛 are either prime themselves or a product of primes (as they are less than 𝑁 and 𝑁 is the smallest number that isn't a product of primes). Either way, they will provide the primes necessary to create 𝑁, making 𝑁 able to be constructed as a product of primes.
Hopefully this helps to see why the proof by contradiction works.
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dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$
$begingroup$
As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
$endgroup$
– Martin Kochanski
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
$endgroup$
– Especially Lime
12 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I can definitely understand how this can feel a little off.
1) The lemma (as stated in the question) says all nonzero integers. Primes are integers and, by definition, cannot be products of primes. So, I think the lemma probably is actually more along the lines of: "all positive non-prime integers can be written as a product of primes".
2) Also, the statement "since 𝑚,𝑛 are positive and smaller than 𝑁 they must each be a product of primes" doesn't really explain why they must be a product of primes. Since, 𝑁 is the smallest positive non-prime integer that cannot be written as a product of primes (by supposition of the lemma), then 𝑚,𝑛 are either prime themselves or a product of primes (as they are less than 𝑁 and 𝑁 is the smallest number that isn't a product of primes). Either way, they will provide the primes necessary to create 𝑁, making 𝑁 able to be constructed as a product of primes.
Hopefully this helps to see why the proof by contradiction works.
New contributor
dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
$endgroup$
– Martin Kochanski
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
$endgroup$
– Especially Lime
12 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I can definitely understand how this can feel a little off.
1) The lemma (as stated in the question) says all nonzero integers. Primes are integers and, by definition, cannot be products of primes. So, I think the lemma probably is actually more along the lines of: "all positive non-prime integers can be written as a product of primes".
2) Also, the statement "since 𝑚,𝑛 are positive and smaller than 𝑁 they must each be a product of primes" doesn't really explain why they must be a product of primes. Since, 𝑁 is the smallest positive non-prime integer that cannot be written as a product of primes (by supposition of the lemma), then 𝑚,𝑛 are either prime themselves or a product of primes (as they are less than 𝑁 and 𝑁 is the smallest number that isn't a product of primes). Either way, they will provide the primes necessary to create 𝑁, making 𝑁 able to be constructed as a product of primes.
Hopefully this helps to see why the proof by contradiction works.
New contributor
dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
I can definitely understand how this can feel a little off.
1) The lemma (as stated in the question) says all nonzero integers. Primes are integers and, by definition, cannot be products of primes. So, I think the lemma probably is actually more along the lines of: "all positive non-prime integers can be written as a product of primes".
2) Also, the statement "since 𝑚,𝑛 are positive and smaller than 𝑁 they must each be a product of primes" doesn't really explain why they must be a product of primes. Since, 𝑁 is the smallest positive non-prime integer that cannot be written as a product of primes (by supposition of the lemma), then 𝑚,𝑛 are either prime themselves or a product of primes (as they are less than 𝑁 and 𝑁 is the smallest number that isn't a product of primes). Either way, they will provide the primes necessary to create 𝑁, making 𝑁 able to be constructed as a product of primes.
Hopefully this helps to see why the proof by contradiction works.
New contributor
dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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answered 21 hours ago
dudemandudeman
1393
1393
New contributor
dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
dudeman is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$begingroup$
As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
$endgroup$
– Martin Kochanski
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
$endgroup$
– Especially Lime
12 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
$endgroup$
– Martin Kochanski
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
$endgroup$
– Especially Lime
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
$endgroup$
– Martin Kochanski
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
As far as your (1) is concerned, I think this is just a matter of "over-mathematical" style in the question. 35 is a product of primes. It is a product of the two primes 5 and 7. 37 is a product of primes. It is a product of the one primes 37. But you have raised the extra, interesting point: the statement is "every non-zero integer" but the proof assumes integers >1. Which rather implies that 1 is either not an integer or not non-zero!
$endgroup$
– Martin Kochanski
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
$endgroup$
– Especially Lime
12 hours ago
$begingroup$
@MartinKochanski The standard way of dealing with $1$ is that the product of zero terms is $1$ by convention, so $1$ is the product of zero primes.
$endgroup$
– Especially Lime
12 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A proof by induction has base case(s), Let m and n be said base cases. if it's true for m and true for n (not necessarily distinct), then because it's a product, it follows for mn. All the proof supposes, is N=mn for some base case ( primes or prime powers to start, in these cases) with m and n proved. Then it follows for N, which by saying N which
originally was consider the least element of a set of counterexamples, has one, it eliminates all possible least elements for the set we originally supposed existed.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A proof by induction has base case(s), Let m and n be said base cases. if it's true for m and true for n (not necessarily distinct), then because it's a product, it follows for mn. All the proof supposes, is N=mn for some base case ( primes or prime powers to start, in these cases) with m and n proved. Then it follows for N, which by saying N which
originally was consider the least element of a set of counterexamples, has one, it eliminates all possible least elements for the set we originally supposed existed.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A proof by induction has base case(s), Let m and n be said base cases. if it's true for m and true for n (not necessarily distinct), then because it's a product, it follows for mn. All the proof supposes, is N=mn for some base case ( primes or prime powers to start, in these cases) with m and n proved. Then it follows for N, which by saying N which
originally was consider the least element of a set of counterexamples, has one, it eliminates all possible least elements for the set we originally supposed existed.
$endgroup$
A proof by induction has base case(s), Let m and n be said base cases. if it's true for m and true for n (not necessarily distinct), then because it's a product, it follows for mn. All the proof supposes, is N=mn for some base case ( primes or prime powers to start, in these cases) with m and n proved. Then it follows for N, which by saying N which
originally was consider the least element of a set of counterexamples, has one, it eliminates all possible least elements for the set we originally supposed existed.
answered 22 hours ago
Roddy MacPheeRoddy MacPhee
573118
573118
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$begingroup$
An integer $n$ is said to be a composite if it can be expressed as the product of two integers $a$ and $b$ with $a notin -1,0,1$ and $b notin -1,0,1$.
An integers $p notin -1,0,1$ that is not a composite is called a prime number.
Recall the method of infinite descent used in mathematical proofs.
Suppose $m notin -1,0,1$ and it can't be expressed as a product of primes. If $m lt 0$ then it is certainly true that the positive number $-m$ can't be factored into primes. So the existence of $m$ allows us to assert that there are positive integers greater than $1$ that can't be factored into a product of prime numbers.
So using infinite descent, we have a minimal $n > 1$ that can't be written as a product of primes. In particular, $n$ can't be a prime. But then it must be a composite, and we can write
$quad n = st text with s,t gt 1$
Note: The composite factors $s$ and $t$ must both be positive or negative.
If they are both negative, replace $s$ with $-s$ and $t$ with $-t$.
But then $s lt n$ and so it can be written as a product of primes. Similarly, $t$ can be written as a product of primes. But then $n$ itself is a product of primes. But this is not possible by our choice of $n$. So the initial assumption of the existence of $m notin -1,0,1$ with no prime factorization leads to a contradiction.
So every $n notin -1,0,1$ has a prime factorization.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
An integer $n$ is said to be a composite if it can be expressed as the product of two integers $a$ and $b$ with $a notin -1,0,1$ and $b notin -1,0,1$.
An integers $p notin -1,0,1$ that is not a composite is called a prime number.
Recall the method of infinite descent used in mathematical proofs.
Suppose $m notin -1,0,1$ and it can't be expressed as a product of primes. If $m lt 0$ then it is certainly true that the positive number $-m$ can't be factored into primes. So the existence of $m$ allows us to assert that there are positive integers greater than $1$ that can't be factored into a product of prime numbers.
So using infinite descent, we have a minimal $n > 1$ that can't be written as a product of primes. In particular, $n$ can't be a prime. But then it must be a composite, and we can write
$quad n = st text with s,t gt 1$
Note: The composite factors $s$ and $t$ must both be positive or negative.
If they are both negative, replace $s$ with $-s$ and $t$ with $-t$.
But then $s lt n$ and so it can be written as a product of primes. Similarly, $t$ can be written as a product of primes. But then $n$ itself is a product of primes. But this is not possible by our choice of $n$. So the initial assumption of the existence of $m notin -1,0,1$ with no prime factorization leads to a contradiction.
So every $n notin -1,0,1$ has a prime factorization.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
An integer $n$ is said to be a composite if it can be expressed as the product of two integers $a$ and $b$ with $a notin -1,0,1$ and $b notin -1,0,1$.
An integers $p notin -1,0,1$ that is not a composite is called a prime number.
Recall the method of infinite descent used in mathematical proofs.
Suppose $m notin -1,0,1$ and it can't be expressed as a product of primes. If $m lt 0$ then it is certainly true that the positive number $-m$ can't be factored into primes. So the existence of $m$ allows us to assert that there are positive integers greater than $1$ that can't be factored into a product of prime numbers.
So using infinite descent, we have a minimal $n > 1$ that can't be written as a product of primes. In particular, $n$ can't be a prime. But then it must be a composite, and we can write
$quad n = st text with s,t gt 1$
Note: The composite factors $s$ and $t$ must both be positive or negative.
If they are both negative, replace $s$ with $-s$ and $t$ with $-t$.
But then $s lt n$ and so it can be written as a product of primes. Similarly, $t$ can be written as a product of primes. But then $n$ itself is a product of primes. But this is not possible by our choice of $n$. So the initial assumption of the existence of $m notin -1,0,1$ with no prime factorization leads to a contradiction.
So every $n notin -1,0,1$ has a prime factorization.
$endgroup$
An integer $n$ is said to be a composite if it can be expressed as the product of two integers $a$ and $b$ with $a notin -1,0,1$ and $b notin -1,0,1$.
An integers $p notin -1,0,1$ that is not a composite is called a prime number.
Recall the method of infinite descent used in mathematical proofs.
Suppose $m notin -1,0,1$ and it can't be expressed as a product of primes. If $m lt 0$ then it is certainly true that the positive number $-m$ can't be factored into primes. So the existence of $m$ allows us to assert that there are positive integers greater than $1$ that can't be factored into a product of prime numbers.
So using infinite descent, we have a minimal $n > 1$ that can't be written as a product of primes. In particular, $n$ can't be a prime. But then it must be a composite, and we can write
$quad n = st text with s,t gt 1$
Note: The composite factors $s$ and $t$ must both be positive or negative.
If they are both negative, replace $s$ with $-s$ and $t$ with $-t$.
But then $s lt n$ and so it can be written as a product of primes. Similarly, $t$ can be written as a product of primes. But then $n$ itself is a product of primes. But this is not possible by our choice of $n$. So the initial assumption of the existence of $m notin -1,0,1$ with no prime factorization leads to a contradiction.
So every $n notin -1,0,1$ has a prime factorization.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
CopyPasteItCopyPasteIt
4,2531728
4,2531728
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There is a property of the natural numbers called well-order. A set is well-ordered if every non-empty subset has a least element. So given any property $P$:
The set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false is either empty or has a least element.
Suppose there is some number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0)$ is false. If $n_0$ is the least such number, then obviously $P(n_0-1)$ is true [1] (otherwise $n_0-1$ would be a number for which $P$ is false that is smaller than $n_0$, and so $n_0$ wouldn't be the smallest such number).
Thus, if we can prove that there is no number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0-1)$ is true and $P(n_0)$ is false (i.e. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$", then we have shown that the set of numbers for which $P$ is false has no least element.
"$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$" is equivalent to "$forall n_0: (neg P(n_0-1) lor P(n_0))$", which is in turn equivalent to "$forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$".
Thus, if we can prove $forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$, then it follows that the set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false does not have a least element. Since all non-empty sets of natural numbers have a least element, this set must be empty. That is, there are no numbers for which $P(n)$ is false, i.e. $P(n)$ is true for all $n$.
[1] There is also the possibility that $n_0-1$ isn't a natural number, which happens when $n_0=0$. Dealing with this possibility requires proving that $P(0)$ is true separately, which is why induction proofs require a base case.
So that's the concept behind induction proofs: if the proposition isn't true for all numbers, then there is a non-empty set of numbers for which it is false, which has to have a least element, which means that we have to go from "true" to "false" at some point. Inductive proofs thus look a bit like circular reasoning: you start assuming that the proposition is true, and use that to prove that the proposition is true. But what makes it non-fallacious is that you prove that the proposition is true for a later number by assuming that it's true for an earlier number.
The proof that you cite is using the same basic principle as induction, namely the well-order of the natural numbers, but it is skipping the one-by-one sort of process that induction proofs usually use. Instead of saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n_0-1)$ being true leads to a contradiction", it's saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n)$ being true for $n<n_0$ leads to a contradiction". Like a standard induction proof, it superficially looks like circular reasoning, but isn't, because it's proving that the proposition is true for $N$ using the fact that it's true for smaller numbers.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There is a property of the natural numbers called well-order. A set is well-ordered if every non-empty subset has a least element. So given any property $P$:
The set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false is either empty or has a least element.
Suppose there is some number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0)$ is false. If $n_0$ is the least such number, then obviously $P(n_0-1)$ is true [1] (otherwise $n_0-1$ would be a number for which $P$ is false that is smaller than $n_0$, and so $n_0$ wouldn't be the smallest such number).
Thus, if we can prove that there is no number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0-1)$ is true and $P(n_0)$ is false (i.e. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$", then we have shown that the set of numbers for which $P$ is false has no least element.
"$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$" is equivalent to "$forall n_0: (neg P(n_0-1) lor P(n_0))$", which is in turn equivalent to "$forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$".
Thus, if we can prove $forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$, then it follows that the set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false does not have a least element. Since all non-empty sets of natural numbers have a least element, this set must be empty. That is, there are no numbers for which $P(n)$ is false, i.e. $P(n)$ is true for all $n$.
[1] There is also the possibility that $n_0-1$ isn't a natural number, which happens when $n_0=0$. Dealing with this possibility requires proving that $P(0)$ is true separately, which is why induction proofs require a base case.
So that's the concept behind induction proofs: if the proposition isn't true for all numbers, then there is a non-empty set of numbers for which it is false, which has to have a least element, which means that we have to go from "true" to "false" at some point. Inductive proofs thus look a bit like circular reasoning: you start assuming that the proposition is true, and use that to prove that the proposition is true. But what makes it non-fallacious is that you prove that the proposition is true for a later number by assuming that it's true for an earlier number.
The proof that you cite is using the same basic principle as induction, namely the well-order of the natural numbers, but it is skipping the one-by-one sort of process that induction proofs usually use. Instead of saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n_0-1)$ being true leads to a contradiction", it's saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n)$ being true for $n<n_0$ leads to a contradiction". Like a standard induction proof, it superficially looks like circular reasoning, but isn't, because it's proving that the proposition is true for $N$ using the fact that it's true for smaller numbers.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There is a property of the natural numbers called well-order. A set is well-ordered if every non-empty subset has a least element. So given any property $P$:
The set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false is either empty or has a least element.
Suppose there is some number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0)$ is false. If $n_0$ is the least such number, then obviously $P(n_0-1)$ is true [1] (otherwise $n_0-1$ would be a number for which $P$ is false that is smaller than $n_0$, and so $n_0$ wouldn't be the smallest such number).
Thus, if we can prove that there is no number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0-1)$ is true and $P(n_0)$ is false (i.e. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$", then we have shown that the set of numbers for which $P$ is false has no least element.
"$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$" is equivalent to "$forall n_0: (neg P(n_0-1) lor P(n_0))$", which is in turn equivalent to "$forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$".
Thus, if we can prove $forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$, then it follows that the set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false does not have a least element. Since all non-empty sets of natural numbers have a least element, this set must be empty. That is, there are no numbers for which $P(n)$ is false, i.e. $P(n)$ is true for all $n$.
[1] There is also the possibility that $n_0-1$ isn't a natural number, which happens when $n_0=0$. Dealing with this possibility requires proving that $P(0)$ is true separately, which is why induction proofs require a base case.
So that's the concept behind induction proofs: if the proposition isn't true for all numbers, then there is a non-empty set of numbers for which it is false, which has to have a least element, which means that we have to go from "true" to "false" at some point. Inductive proofs thus look a bit like circular reasoning: you start assuming that the proposition is true, and use that to prove that the proposition is true. But what makes it non-fallacious is that you prove that the proposition is true for a later number by assuming that it's true for an earlier number.
The proof that you cite is using the same basic principle as induction, namely the well-order of the natural numbers, but it is skipping the one-by-one sort of process that induction proofs usually use. Instead of saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n_0-1)$ being true leads to a contradiction", it's saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n)$ being true for $n<n_0$ leads to a contradiction". Like a standard induction proof, it superficially looks like circular reasoning, but isn't, because it's proving that the proposition is true for $N$ using the fact that it's true for smaller numbers.
$endgroup$
There is a property of the natural numbers called well-order. A set is well-ordered if every non-empty subset has a least element. So given any property $P$:
The set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false is either empty or has a least element.
Suppose there is some number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0)$ is false. If $n_0$ is the least such number, then obviously $P(n_0-1)$ is true [1] (otherwise $n_0-1$ would be a number for which $P$ is false that is smaller than $n_0$, and so $n_0$ wouldn't be the smallest such number).
Thus, if we can prove that there is no number $n_0$ such that $P(n_0-1)$ is true and $P(n_0)$ is false (i.e. "$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$", then we have shown that the set of numbers for which $P$ is false has no least element.
"$neg exists n_0: (P(n_0-1) land neg P(n_0))$" is equivalent to "$forall n_0: (neg P(n_0-1) lor P(n_0))$", which is in turn equivalent to "$forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$".
Thus, if we can prove $forall n_0: (P(n_0-1) rightarrow P(n_0))$, then it follows that the set of numbers for which $P(n)$ is false does not have a least element. Since all non-empty sets of natural numbers have a least element, this set must be empty. That is, there are no numbers for which $P(n)$ is false, i.e. $P(n)$ is true for all $n$.
[1] There is also the possibility that $n_0-1$ isn't a natural number, which happens when $n_0=0$. Dealing with this possibility requires proving that $P(0)$ is true separately, which is why induction proofs require a base case.
So that's the concept behind induction proofs: if the proposition isn't true for all numbers, then there is a non-empty set of numbers for which it is false, which has to have a least element, which means that we have to go from "true" to "false" at some point. Inductive proofs thus look a bit like circular reasoning: you start assuming that the proposition is true, and use that to prove that the proposition is true. But what makes it non-fallacious is that you prove that the proposition is true for a later number by assuming that it's true for an earlier number.
The proof that you cite is using the same basic principle as induction, namely the well-order of the natural numbers, but it is skipping the one-by-one sort of process that induction proofs usually use. Instead of saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n_0-1)$ being true leads to a contradiction", it's saying "If $P(n_0)$ is false, then $P(n)$ being true for $n<n_0$ leads to a contradiction". Like a standard induction proof, it superficially looks like circular reasoning, but isn't, because it's proving that the proposition is true for $N$ using the fact that it's true for smaller numbers.
answered 4 hours ago
AcccumulationAcccumulation
7,1452619
7,1452619
add a comment |
add a comment |
Alena Gusakov is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Alena Gusakov is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Alena Gusakov is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Alena Gusakov is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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2
$begingroup$
That argument is by induction. the result is easy to check for small numbers, so assume it holds up to $N-1$. Then $N$ is either prime, in which case we are done, or it factors as $atimes b$ with $1<a≤b<N-1$ and you can apply the inductive hypothesis to $a,b$. Same argument.
$endgroup$
– lulu
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
There is nothing missing in this proof. It is just fine. And why “two primes”?
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
yesterday
4
$begingroup$
It's a valid proof by infinite descent (a.k.a. minimal criminal), the contrapositive of induction - see the Remark here. You should master both this (negative) and the normal (positive) form of induction.
$endgroup$
– Bill Dubuque
22 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
$-1$ is an integer, and is not prime...
$endgroup$
– Gerrit0
19 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@AndreasRejbrand According to the textbook, if p is a prime then -p is a prime :/
$endgroup$
– Alena Gusakov
8 hours ago