Examples of subgroups where it's nontrivial to show closure under multiplication?Can a finitely generated group have infinitely many torsion elements?The torsion subset of a non-abelian group is not, in general, a subgroup.torsion subgroup of a finitely generated nilpotent group is finite.Is a finitely generated torsion group finite in general?Residually finite group with finitely many conjugacy classes of elements of finite orderPart of simple proof of nontrivial center in p-groupWhy $|G:Z(G)|$ is finite in this question?Is the FC-center of a finitely generated group itself finitely generated?Conjugacy classes generating an infinite groupThe center of a linear group with finite conjugacy classes has finite index

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Examples of subgroups where it's nontrivial to show closure under multiplication?

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Examples of subgroups where it's nontrivial to show closure under multiplication?


Can a finitely generated group have infinitely many torsion elements?The torsion subset of a non-abelian group is not, in general, a subgroup.torsion subgroup of a finitely generated nilpotent group is finite.Is a finitely generated torsion group finite in general?Residually finite group with finitely many conjugacy classes of elements of finite orderPart of simple proof of nontrivial center in p-groupWhy $|G:Z(G)|$ is finite in this question?Is the FC-center of a finitely generated group itself finitely generated?Conjugacy classes generating an infinite groupThe center of a linear group with finite conjugacy classes has finite index













4












$begingroup$


Usually when a subgroup is declared, it is trivial (or at least straightforward to a sophomore) to prove that it is a subgroup under multiplication. For example:



  • Homomorphic image and preimage of a subgroup

  • Center

  • Intersection of two subgroups

  • Stabilizer of a point in a group action

  • Elements of finite conjugacy class


  • $HN$, where $Hleq G$ and $Ntrianglelefteq G$

I'm looking for interesting theorems where a subset is claimed to be a subgroup, but it is nontrivial to verify. I am looking for some kind of structure-theoretic subgroup that can be defined for any group (or a large class of groups), rather than specific examples that are hard to show closure.




I can think of only one example.



Let $Delta(G)$ be those elements with finite conjugacy class (easily seen to be a subgroup), and let $Delta^+(G)$ be its torsion subset. Note that $g$ has finite conjugacy class in $G$ if and only if $[G:C(g)]<infty$ where $C(g)$ is the centralizer.



$$Delta^+(G):=langle grangle.$$




Theorem: $Delta^+(G)$ is closed under multiplication.




The proof takes 1-2 pages of nontrivial calculations. If $a,b$ are torsion, it's not true that their product $ab$ is torsion --- but amazingly, it is true if $a,b$ have only finitely many conjugates.



Does anyone have any other examples?




Proof of the Theorem, for those interested. You can see it from the following (nontrivial) lemma.




Lemma (Dietzmann). If $[G:Z(G)]<infty$, then $[G,G]$ is finite.




Modulo the (page long) proof of this, let's see why it implies the theorem.



Let $x,yin Delta^+(G)$ so that $x,y$ have finite conjugacy classes and orders. Clearly $xy$ has a finite conjugacy class, so we just have to show that it has finite order.



Let $N$ be the subgroup generated by all the conjugates of $x$ and $y$, so that $N$ is finitely-generated. Then $N/N'$ is an abelian group generated by finitely many torsion elements, hence finite, so $[N:N']<infty$. It is thus enough to show $N'$ is finite, because then $N$ is finite, and since $xyin N$ this completes the proof.



To show $N'$ is finite we use Dietzmann's Lemma: notice $Z(N)=C_N(x)cap C_N(y)$, and these centralizers have finite index in $N$. Therefore $[N:Z(N)]<infty$ and we apply Dietzmann's Lemma.



This was already a somewhat lengthy and interesting argument, and we haven't even proved Dietzmann's Lemma yet!




Edit: a related question is as follows. Name any functions $varphi:Grightarrow H$ that are homomorphisms, but it is nontrivial to show.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    The set of torsion elements in a nilpotent group is a subgroup. And the set of elements of order some power of a prime $p$, in a nilpotent group, is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    The set of exponentially distorted elements in a simply connected solvable Lie group is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't remember the precise statement, but there is a theorem that looks like "let the finite group $G$ act transitively on the finite set $X$ such that every element of $G$ has at most one fixed point. Then the set of elements of $G$ that have no fixed point + $e$ is a subgroup of $G$" - if I remember correctly, the proof uses representation theory
    $endgroup$
    – Max
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You don't need any use of structure theorem for f.g. abelian groups (clearly every f.g. abelian group generated by torsion elements is finite).
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't know if it qualifies, but it is a very difficult and recent theorem (positive solution to Ore's conjecture) that the set of commutators in every finite simple group is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    57 mins ago















4












$begingroup$


Usually when a subgroup is declared, it is trivial (or at least straightforward to a sophomore) to prove that it is a subgroup under multiplication. For example:



  • Homomorphic image and preimage of a subgroup

  • Center

  • Intersection of two subgroups

  • Stabilizer of a point in a group action

  • Elements of finite conjugacy class


  • $HN$, where $Hleq G$ and $Ntrianglelefteq G$

I'm looking for interesting theorems where a subset is claimed to be a subgroup, but it is nontrivial to verify. I am looking for some kind of structure-theoretic subgroup that can be defined for any group (or a large class of groups), rather than specific examples that are hard to show closure.




I can think of only one example.



Let $Delta(G)$ be those elements with finite conjugacy class (easily seen to be a subgroup), and let $Delta^+(G)$ be its torsion subset. Note that $g$ has finite conjugacy class in $G$ if and only if $[G:C(g)]<infty$ where $C(g)$ is the centralizer.



$$Delta^+(G):=langle grangle.$$




Theorem: $Delta^+(G)$ is closed under multiplication.




The proof takes 1-2 pages of nontrivial calculations. If $a,b$ are torsion, it's not true that their product $ab$ is torsion --- but amazingly, it is true if $a,b$ have only finitely many conjugates.



Does anyone have any other examples?




Proof of the Theorem, for those interested. You can see it from the following (nontrivial) lemma.




Lemma (Dietzmann). If $[G:Z(G)]<infty$, then $[G,G]$ is finite.




Modulo the (page long) proof of this, let's see why it implies the theorem.



Let $x,yin Delta^+(G)$ so that $x,y$ have finite conjugacy classes and orders. Clearly $xy$ has a finite conjugacy class, so we just have to show that it has finite order.



Let $N$ be the subgroup generated by all the conjugates of $x$ and $y$, so that $N$ is finitely-generated. Then $N/N'$ is an abelian group generated by finitely many torsion elements, hence finite, so $[N:N']<infty$. It is thus enough to show $N'$ is finite, because then $N$ is finite, and since $xyin N$ this completes the proof.



To show $N'$ is finite we use Dietzmann's Lemma: notice $Z(N)=C_N(x)cap C_N(y)$, and these centralizers have finite index in $N$. Therefore $[N:Z(N)]<infty$ and we apply Dietzmann's Lemma.



This was already a somewhat lengthy and interesting argument, and we haven't even proved Dietzmann's Lemma yet!




Edit: a related question is as follows. Name any functions $varphi:Grightarrow H$ that are homomorphisms, but it is nontrivial to show.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    The set of torsion elements in a nilpotent group is a subgroup. And the set of elements of order some power of a prime $p$, in a nilpotent group, is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    The set of exponentially distorted elements in a simply connected solvable Lie group is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't remember the precise statement, but there is a theorem that looks like "let the finite group $G$ act transitively on the finite set $X$ such that every element of $G$ has at most one fixed point. Then the set of elements of $G$ that have no fixed point + $e$ is a subgroup of $G$" - if I remember correctly, the proof uses representation theory
    $endgroup$
    – Max
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You don't need any use of structure theorem for f.g. abelian groups (clearly every f.g. abelian group generated by torsion elements is finite).
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't know if it qualifies, but it is a very difficult and recent theorem (positive solution to Ore's conjecture) that the set of commutators in every finite simple group is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    57 mins ago













4












4








4


1



$begingroup$


Usually when a subgroup is declared, it is trivial (or at least straightforward to a sophomore) to prove that it is a subgroup under multiplication. For example:



  • Homomorphic image and preimage of a subgroup

  • Center

  • Intersection of two subgroups

  • Stabilizer of a point in a group action

  • Elements of finite conjugacy class


  • $HN$, where $Hleq G$ and $Ntrianglelefteq G$

I'm looking for interesting theorems where a subset is claimed to be a subgroup, but it is nontrivial to verify. I am looking for some kind of structure-theoretic subgroup that can be defined for any group (or a large class of groups), rather than specific examples that are hard to show closure.




I can think of only one example.



Let $Delta(G)$ be those elements with finite conjugacy class (easily seen to be a subgroup), and let $Delta^+(G)$ be its torsion subset. Note that $g$ has finite conjugacy class in $G$ if and only if $[G:C(g)]<infty$ where $C(g)$ is the centralizer.



$$Delta^+(G):=langle grangle.$$




Theorem: $Delta^+(G)$ is closed under multiplication.




The proof takes 1-2 pages of nontrivial calculations. If $a,b$ are torsion, it's not true that their product $ab$ is torsion --- but amazingly, it is true if $a,b$ have only finitely many conjugates.



Does anyone have any other examples?




Proof of the Theorem, for those interested. You can see it from the following (nontrivial) lemma.




Lemma (Dietzmann). If $[G:Z(G)]<infty$, then $[G,G]$ is finite.




Modulo the (page long) proof of this, let's see why it implies the theorem.



Let $x,yin Delta^+(G)$ so that $x,y$ have finite conjugacy classes and orders. Clearly $xy$ has a finite conjugacy class, so we just have to show that it has finite order.



Let $N$ be the subgroup generated by all the conjugates of $x$ and $y$, so that $N$ is finitely-generated. Then $N/N'$ is an abelian group generated by finitely many torsion elements, hence finite, so $[N:N']<infty$. It is thus enough to show $N'$ is finite, because then $N$ is finite, and since $xyin N$ this completes the proof.



To show $N'$ is finite we use Dietzmann's Lemma: notice $Z(N)=C_N(x)cap C_N(y)$, and these centralizers have finite index in $N$. Therefore $[N:Z(N)]<infty$ and we apply Dietzmann's Lemma.



This was already a somewhat lengthy and interesting argument, and we haven't even proved Dietzmann's Lemma yet!




Edit: a related question is as follows. Name any functions $varphi:Grightarrow H$ that are homomorphisms, but it is nontrivial to show.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Usually when a subgroup is declared, it is trivial (or at least straightforward to a sophomore) to prove that it is a subgroup under multiplication. For example:



  • Homomorphic image and preimage of a subgroup

  • Center

  • Intersection of two subgroups

  • Stabilizer of a point in a group action

  • Elements of finite conjugacy class


  • $HN$, where $Hleq G$ and $Ntrianglelefteq G$

I'm looking for interesting theorems where a subset is claimed to be a subgroup, but it is nontrivial to verify. I am looking for some kind of structure-theoretic subgroup that can be defined for any group (or a large class of groups), rather than specific examples that are hard to show closure.




I can think of only one example.



Let $Delta(G)$ be those elements with finite conjugacy class (easily seen to be a subgroup), and let $Delta^+(G)$ be its torsion subset. Note that $g$ has finite conjugacy class in $G$ if and only if $[G:C(g)]<infty$ where $C(g)$ is the centralizer.



$$Delta^+(G):=langle grangle.$$




Theorem: $Delta^+(G)$ is closed under multiplication.




The proof takes 1-2 pages of nontrivial calculations. If $a,b$ are torsion, it's not true that their product $ab$ is torsion --- but amazingly, it is true if $a,b$ have only finitely many conjugates.



Does anyone have any other examples?




Proof of the Theorem, for those interested. You can see it from the following (nontrivial) lemma.




Lemma (Dietzmann). If $[G:Z(G)]<infty$, then $[G,G]$ is finite.




Modulo the (page long) proof of this, let's see why it implies the theorem.



Let $x,yin Delta^+(G)$ so that $x,y$ have finite conjugacy classes and orders. Clearly $xy$ has a finite conjugacy class, so we just have to show that it has finite order.



Let $N$ be the subgroup generated by all the conjugates of $x$ and $y$, so that $N$ is finitely-generated. Then $N/N'$ is an abelian group generated by finitely many torsion elements, hence finite, so $[N:N']<infty$. It is thus enough to show $N'$ is finite, because then $N$ is finite, and since $xyin N$ this completes the proof.



To show $N'$ is finite we use Dietzmann's Lemma: notice $Z(N)=C_N(x)cap C_N(y)$, and these centralizers have finite index in $N$. Therefore $[N:Z(N)]<infty$ and we apply Dietzmann's Lemma.



This was already a somewhat lengthy and interesting argument, and we haven't even proved Dietzmann's Lemma yet!




Edit: a related question is as follows. Name any functions $varphi:Grightarrow H$ that are homomorphisms, but it is nontrivial to show.







abstract-algebra group-theory big-list






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 28 mins ago







Ehsaan

















asked 1 hour ago









EhsaanEhsaan

1,138514




1,138514











  • $begingroup$
    The set of torsion elements in a nilpotent group is a subgroup. And the set of elements of order some power of a prime $p$, in a nilpotent group, is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    The set of exponentially distorted elements in a simply connected solvable Lie group is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't remember the precise statement, but there is a theorem that looks like "let the finite group $G$ act transitively on the finite set $X$ such that every element of $G$ has at most one fixed point. Then the set of elements of $G$ that have no fixed point + $e$ is a subgroup of $G$" - if I remember correctly, the proof uses representation theory
    $endgroup$
    – Max
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You don't need any use of structure theorem for f.g. abelian groups (clearly every f.g. abelian group generated by torsion elements is finite).
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't know if it qualifies, but it is a very difficult and recent theorem (positive solution to Ore's conjecture) that the set of commutators in every finite simple group is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    57 mins ago
















  • $begingroup$
    The set of torsion elements in a nilpotent group is a subgroup. And the set of elements of order some power of a prime $p$, in a nilpotent group, is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago











  • $begingroup$
    The set of exponentially distorted elements in a simply connected solvable Lie group is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't remember the precise statement, but there is a theorem that looks like "let the finite group $G$ act transitively on the finite set $X$ such that every element of $G$ has at most one fixed point. Then the set of elements of $G$ that have no fixed point + $e$ is a subgroup of $G$" - if I remember correctly, the proof uses representation theory
    $endgroup$
    – Max
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You don't need any use of structure theorem for f.g. abelian groups (clearly every f.g. abelian group generated by torsion elements is finite).
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I don't know if it qualifies, but it is a very difficult and recent theorem (positive solution to Ore's conjecture) that the set of commutators in every finite simple group is a subgroup.
    $endgroup$
    – YCor
    57 mins ago















$begingroup$
The set of torsion elements in a nilpotent group is a subgroup. And the set of elements of order some power of a prime $p$, in a nilpotent group, is a subgroup.
$endgroup$
– YCor
1 hour ago





$begingroup$
The set of torsion elements in a nilpotent group is a subgroup. And the set of elements of order some power of a prime $p$, in a nilpotent group, is a subgroup.
$endgroup$
– YCor
1 hour ago













$begingroup$
The set of exponentially distorted elements in a simply connected solvable Lie group is a subgroup.
$endgroup$
– YCor
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
The set of exponentially distorted elements in a simply connected solvable Lie group is a subgroup.
$endgroup$
– YCor
1 hour ago




1




1




$begingroup$
I don't remember the precise statement, but there is a theorem that looks like "let the finite group $G$ act transitively on the finite set $X$ such that every element of $G$ has at most one fixed point. Then the set of elements of $G$ that have no fixed point + $e$ is a subgroup of $G$" - if I remember correctly, the proof uses representation theory
$endgroup$
– Max
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
I don't remember the precise statement, but there is a theorem that looks like "let the finite group $G$ act transitively on the finite set $X$ such that every element of $G$ has at most one fixed point. Then the set of elements of $G$ that have no fixed point + $e$ is a subgroup of $G$" - if I remember correctly, the proof uses representation theory
$endgroup$
– Max
1 hour ago




1




1




$begingroup$
You don't need any use of structure theorem for f.g. abelian groups (clearly every f.g. abelian group generated by torsion elements is finite).
$endgroup$
– YCor
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
You don't need any use of structure theorem for f.g. abelian groups (clearly every f.g. abelian group generated by torsion elements is finite).
$endgroup$
– YCor
1 hour ago




1




1




$begingroup$
I don't know if it qualifies, but it is a very difficult and recent theorem (positive solution to Ore's conjecture) that the set of commutators in every finite simple group is a subgroup.
$endgroup$
– YCor
57 mins ago




$begingroup$
I don't know if it qualifies, but it is a very difficult and recent theorem (positive solution to Ore's conjecture) that the set of commutators in every finite simple group is a subgroup.
$endgroup$
– YCor
57 mins ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

Consider the symmetric group $S_n$ on $ngeq 2$ letters. The alternating group $A_n$ is the subgroup of $S_n$ given by all even permutations of $S_n$.



One proof uses the signum or sign function $s:S_nrightarrowpm 1$ which assigns to a permutation $pi$, $+1$ if $pi$ is even, and $-1$ if $pi$ is odd.
It can be shown that the sign function is a homomorphism, i.e., $s(pisigma) = s(pi)cdot s(sigma)$.



It follows that the product of two even permutations is even and so the multiplication in $A_n$ is well-defined.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Ah yeah, this is a tricky one too. You can also use determinant of the associated permutation matrix (considered over $mathbfF_2$) to construct the sign function, which makes it "easy" to show that it's a homomorphism and its kernel is a subgroup of index $2$, hence normal.
    $endgroup$
    – Ehsaan
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    When I first took group theory, the instructor painstakingly showed that if a permutation is a product of transpositions, then the number of such transpositions is unique modulo $2$. I'm not sure if using determinants properly circumvents this technical argument, or sweeps it under the rug.
    $endgroup$
    – Ehsaan
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Ehsaan: I don't think determinants over $mathbbF_2$ will help you much...
    $endgroup$
    – darij grinberg
    46 mins ago











  • $begingroup$
    @darijgrinberg Sorry you're right, don't know what I was thinking. Do it over $mathbfQ$ and argue it is $pm 1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Ehsaan
    42 mins ago


















1












$begingroup$

Let $G=GL(4,k)$ (the group of all $4times4$ inferible matrices with entries in a field $k$) and let $N$ be the subgroup of those matrices $Min GL(4,k)$ of the form$$beginbmatrixa_11&a_12&a_13&a_14\a_21&a_22&a_23&a_24\0&0&a_33&a_34\0&0&a_43&a_44endbmatrix.$$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    I think this one follows from the fact that 2x2 upper triangular matrices form a group and that you can operate matrices "blockwise".
    $endgroup$
    – yamete kudasai
    1 hour ago



















0












$begingroup$

Generalizing another answer, for any Coxeter system $(W, S) $ there is an alternating subgroup defined as the kernel of the homomorphism $Wto-1,1$ sending the elements of the generating set $S$ to $-1$. Most Coxeter groups don't have a representation that is as nice as the symmetric group, so to prove this is a homomorphism we basically have to construct the root system out of the reflections.






share|cite









$endgroup$













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    3 Answers
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    oldest

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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    2












    $begingroup$

    Consider the symmetric group $S_n$ on $ngeq 2$ letters. The alternating group $A_n$ is the subgroup of $S_n$ given by all even permutations of $S_n$.



    One proof uses the signum or sign function $s:S_nrightarrowpm 1$ which assigns to a permutation $pi$, $+1$ if $pi$ is even, and $-1$ if $pi$ is odd.
    It can be shown that the sign function is a homomorphism, i.e., $s(pisigma) = s(pi)cdot s(sigma)$.



    It follows that the product of two even permutations is even and so the multiplication in $A_n$ is well-defined.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Ah yeah, this is a tricky one too. You can also use determinant of the associated permutation matrix (considered over $mathbfF_2$) to construct the sign function, which makes it "easy" to show that it's a homomorphism and its kernel is a subgroup of index $2$, hence normal.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      When I first took group theory, the instructor painstakingly showed that if a permutation is a product of transpositions, then the number of such transpositions is unique modulo $2$. I'm not sure if using determinants properly circumvents this technical argument, or sweeps it under the rug.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Ehsaan: I don't think determinants over $mathbbF_2$ will help you much...
      $endgroup$
      – darij grinberg
      46 mins ago











    • $begingroup$
      @darijgrinberg Sorry you're right, don't know what I was thinking. Do it over $mathbfQ$ and argue it is $pm 1$.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      42 mins ago















    2












    $begingroup$

    Consider the symmetric group $S_n$ on $ngeq 2$ letters. The alternating group $A_n$ is the subgroup of $S_n$ given by all even permutations of $S_n$.



    One proof uses the signum or sign function $s:S_nrightarrowpm 1$ which assigns to a permutation $pi$, $+1$ if $pi$ is even, and $-1$ if $pi$ is odd.
    It can be shown that the sign function is a homomorphism, i.e., $s(pisigma) = s(pi)cdot s(sigma)$.



    It follows that the product of two even permutations is even and so the multiplication in $A_n$ is well-defined.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Ah yeah, this is a tricky one too. You can also use determinant of the associated permutation matrix (considered over $mathbfF_2$) to construct the sign function, which makes it "easy" to show that it's a homomorphism and its kernel is a subgroup of index $2$, hence normal.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      When I first took group theory, the instructor painstakingly showed that if a permutation is a product of transpositions, then the number of such transpositions is unique modulo $2$. I'm not sure if using determinants properly circumvents this technical argument, or sweeps it under the rug.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Ehsaan: I don't think determinants over $mathbbF_2$ will help you much...
      $endgroup$
      – darij grinberg
      46 mins ago











    • $begingroup$
      @darijgrinberg Sorry you're right, don't know what I was thinking. Do it over $mathbfQ$ and argue it is $pm 1$.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      42 mins ago













    2












    2








    2





    $begingroup$

    Consider the symmetric group $S_n$ on $ngeq 2$ letters. The alternating group $A_n$ is the subgroup of $S_n$ given by all even permutations of $S_n$.



    One proof uses the signum or sign function $s:S_nrightarrowpm 1$ which assigns to a permutation $pi$, $+1$ if $pi$ is even, and $-1$ if $pi$ is odd.
    It can be shown that the sign function is a homomorphism, i.e., $s(pisigma) = s(pi)cdot s(sigma)$.



    It follows that the product of two even permutations is even and so the multiplication in $A_n$ is well-defined.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    Consider the symmetric group $S_n$ on $ngeq 2$ letters. The alternating group $A_n$ is the subgroup of $S_n$ given by all even permutations of $S_n$.



    One proof uses the signum or sign function $s:S_nrightarrowpm 1$ which assigns to a permutation $pi$, $+1$ if $pi$ is even, and $-1$ if $pi$ is odd.
    It can be shown that the sign function is a homomorphism, i.e., $s(pisigma) = s(pi)cdot s(sigma)$.



    It follows that the product of two even permutations is even and so the multiplication in $A_n$ is well-defined.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered 1 hour ago









    WuestenfuxWuestenfux

    5,7701513




    5,7701513











    • $begingroup$
      Ah yeah, this is a tricky one too. You can also use determinant of the associated permutation matrix (considered over $mathbfF_2$) to construct the sign function, which makes it "easy" to show that it's a homomorphism and its kernel is a subgroup of index $2$, hence normal.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      When I first took group theory, the instructor painstakingly showed that if a permutation is a product of transpositions, then the number of such transpositions is unique modulo $2$. I'm not sure if using determinants properly circumvents this technical argument, or sweeps it under the rug.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Ehsaan: I don't think determinants over $mathbbF_2$ will help you much...
      $endgroup$
      – darij grinberg
      46 mins ago











    • $begingroup$
      @darijgrinberg Sorry you're right, don't know what I was thinking. Do it over $mathbfQ$ and argue it is $pm 1$.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      42 mins ago
















    • $begingroup$
      Ah yeah, this is a tricky one too. You can also use determinant of the associated permutation matrix (considered over $mathbfF_2$) to construct the sign function, which makes it "easy" to show that it's a homomorphism and its kernel is a subgroup of index $2$, hence normal.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      When I first took group theory, the instructor painstakingly showed that if a permutation is a product of transpositions, then the number of such transpositions is unique modulo $2$. I'm not sure if using determinants properly circumvents this technical argument, or sweeps it under the rug.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Ehsaan: I don't think determinants over $mathbbF_2$ will help you much...
      $endgroup$
      – darij grinberg
      46 mins ago











    • $begingroup$
      @darijgrinberg Sorry you're right, don't know what I was thinking. Do it over $mathbfQ$ and argue it is $pm 1$.
      $endgroup$
      – Ehsaan
      42 mins ago















    $begingroup$
    Ah yeah, this is a tricky one too. You can also use determinant of the associated permutation matrix (considered over $mathbfF_2$) to construct the sign function, which makes it "easy" to show that it's a homomorphism and its kernel is a subgroup of index $2$, hence normal.
    $endgroup$
    – Ehsaan
    1 hour ago




    $begingroup$
    Ah yeah, this is a tricky one too. You can also use determinant of the associated permutation matrix (considered over $mathbfF_2$) to construct the sign function, which makes it "easy" to show that it's a homomorphism and its kernel is a subgroup of index $2$, hence normal.
    $endgroup$
    – Ehsaan
    1 hour ago












    $begingroup$
    When I first took group theory, the instructor painstakingly showed that if a permutation is a product of transpositions, then the number of such transpositions is unique modulo $2$. I'm not sure if using determinants properly circumvents this technical argument, or sweeps it under the rug.
    $endgroup$
    – Ehsaan
    1 hour ago




    $begingroup$
    When I first took group theory, the instructor painstakingly showed that if a permutation is a product of transpositions, then the number of such transpositions is unique modulo $2$. I'm not sure if using determinants properly circumvents this technical argument, or sweeps it under the rug.
    $endgroup$
    – Ehsaan
    1 hour ago












    $begingroup$
    @Ehsaan: I don't think determinants over $mathbbF_2$ will help you much...
    $endgroup$
    – darij grinberg
    46 mins ago





    $begingroup$
    @Ehsaan: I don't think determinants over $mathbbF_2$ will help you much...
    $endgroup$
    – darij grinberg
    46 mins ago













    $begingroup$
    @darijgrinberg Sorry you're right, don't know what I was thinking. Do it over $mathbfQ$ and argue it is $pm 1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Ehsaan
    42 mins ago




    $begingroup$
    @darijgrinberg Sorry you're right, don't know what I was thinking. Do it over $mathbfQ$ and argue it is $pm 1$.
    $endgroup$
    – Ehsaan
    42 mins ago











    1












    $begingroup$

    Let $G=GL(4,k)$ (the group of all $4times4$ inferible matrices with entries in a field $k$) and let $N$ be the subgroup of those matrices $Min GL(4,k)$ of the form$$beginbmatrixa_11&a_12&a_13&a_14\a_21&a_22&a_23&a_24\0&0&a_33&a_34\0&0&a_43&a_44endbmatrix.$$






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$








    • 1




      $begingroup$
      I think this one follows from the fact that 2x2 upper triangular matrices form a group and that you can operate matrices "blockwise".
      $endgroup$
      – yamete kudasai
      1 hour ago
















    1












    $begingroup$

    Let $G=GL(4,k)$ (the group of all $4times4$ inferible matrices with entries in a field $k$) and let $N$ be the subgroup of those matrices $Min GL(4,k)$ of the form$$beginbmatrixa_11&a_12&a_13&a_14\a_21&a_22&a_23&a_24\0&0&a_33&a_34\0&0&a_43&a_44endbmatrix.$$






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$








    • 1




      $begingroup$
      I think this one follows from the fact that 2x2 upper triangular matrices form a group and that you can operate matrices "blockwise".
      $endgroup$
      – yamete kudasai
      1 hour ago














    1












    1








    1





    $begingroup$

    Let $G=GL(4,k)$ (the group of all $4times4$ inferible matrices with entries in a field $k$) and let $N$ be the subgroup of those matrices $Min GL(4,k)$ of the form$$beginbmatrixa_11&a_12&a_13&a_14\a_21&a_22&a_23&a_24\0&0&a_33&a_34\0&0&a_43&a_44endbmatrix.$$






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    Let $G=GL(4,k)$ (the group of all $4times4$ inferible matrices with entries in a field $k$) and let $N$ be the subgroup of those matrices $Min GL(4,k)$ of the form$$beginbmatrixa_11&a_12&a_13&a_14\a_21&a_22&a_23&a_24\0&0&a_33&a_34\0&0&a_43&a_44endbmatrix.$$







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered 1 hour ago









    José Carlos SantosJosé Carlos Santos

    178k24139251




    178k24139251







    • 1




      $begingroup$
      I think this one follows from the fact that 2x2 upper triangular matrices form a group and that you can operate matrices "blockwise".
      $endgroup$
      – yamete kudasai
      1 hour ago













    • 1




      $begingroup$
      I think this one follows from the fact that 2x2 upper triangular matrices form a group and that you can operate matrices "blockwise".
      $endgroup$
      – yamete kudasai
      1 hour ago








    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    I think this one follows from the fact that 2x2 upper triangular matrices form a group and that you can operate matrices "blockwise".
    $endgroup$
    – yamete kudasai
    1 hour ago





    $begingroup$
    I think this one follows from the fact that 2x2 upper triangular matrices form a group and that you can operate matrices "blockwise".
    $endgroup$
    – yamete kudasai
    1 hour ago












    0












    $begingroup$

    Generalizing another answer, for any Coxeter system $(W, S) $ there is an alternating subgroup defined as the kernel of the homomorphism $Wto-1,1$ sending the elements of the generating set $S$ to $-1$. Most Coxeter groups don't have a representation that is as nice as the symmetric group, so to prove this is a homomorphism we basically have to construct the root system out of the reflections.






    share|cite









    $endgroup$

















      0












      $begingroup$

      Generalizing another answer, for any Coxeter system $(W, S) $ there is an alternating subgroup defined as the kernel of the homomorphism $Wto-1,1$ sending the elements of the generating set $S$ to $-1$. Most Coxeter groups don't have a representation that is as nice as the symmetric group, so to prove this is a homomorphism we basically have to construct the root system out of the reflections.






      share|cite









      $endgroup$















        0












        0








        0





        $begingroup$

        Generalizing another answer, for any Coxeter system $(W, S) $ there is an alternating subgroup defined as the kernel of the homomorphism $Wto-1,1$ sending the elements of the generating set $S$ to $-1$. Most Coxeter groups don't have a representation that is as nice as the symmetric group, so to prove this is a homomorphism we basically have to construct the root system out of the reflections.






        share|cite









        $endgroup$



        Generalizing another answer, for any Coxeter system $(W, S) $ there is an alternating subgroup defined as the kernel of the homomorphism $Wto-1,1$ sending the elements of the generating set $S$ to $-1$. Most Coxeter groups don't have a representation that is as nice as the symmetric group, so to prove this is a homomorphism we basically have to construct the root system out of the reflections.







        share|cite












        share|cite



        share|cite










        answered 2 mins ago









        Matt SamuelMatt Samuel

        39.5k63870




        39.5k63870



























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