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Curl and circulation of a vector field that is ill-defined at the origin: any interesting physical effects?


Hamiltonian with Dirac Delta functionFlux from cube: Relation between the vector field to that of the opposite sideWhat is the physical cause that circulation on a closed surface is zero?Show that a solenoidal field is always a curl of a vector fieldPhysical interpretation of curl of curl of Electric field vectorIs curl of a vector a scalar quantity in 2 spatial dimensions? If it is so, then somebody help me understanding Maxwell's equations in 2+1 DIs the static electric field $vecE$ defined and finite where charges are located?Curl operator in Schwarzschild metricCan any vector field be decomposed into a curl-free part and a divergence-free part?Is the air velocity and air temperature a vector field?













2












$begingroup$


In the cylindrical polar $(rho,phi,z)$ coordinate, suppose the velocity field in a liquid is given by $$vecv=fracKrhohate_phi, qquad K=textconstant.tag1$$ It can be easily checked that $$vecnablatimesvecv=0, qquad rhoneq 0.tag2 $$ Is it possible to write down a compact expression of $vecnablatimesvecv$ valid at the points including $rho=0$?



Next, I want to use the Stokes theorem to calculate the value of $ointvecvcdotvecdl$. I understand that this looks like a math question. However, how would a physicist interpret this singularity in the sense that how physical it is? Will it have any important physical consequence in the sense that this singularity cannot be ignored?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    2












    $begingroup$


    In the cylindrical polar $(rho,phi,z)$ coordinate, suppose the velocity field in a liquid is given by $$vecv=fracKrhohate_phi, qquad K=textconstant.tag1$$ It can be easily checked that $$vecnablatimesvecv=0, qquad rhoneq 0.tag2 $$ Is it possible to write down a compact expression of $vecnablatimesvecv$ valid at the points including $rho=0$?



    Next, I want to use the Stokes theorem to calculate the value of $ointvecvcdotvecdl$. I understand that this looks like a math question. However, how would a physicist interpret this singularity in the sense that how physical it is? Will it have any important physical consequence in the sense that this singularity cannot be ignored?










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      2












      2








      2


      2



      $begingroup$


      In the cylindrical polar $(rho,phi,z)$ coordinate, suppose the velocity field in a liquid is given by $$vecv=fracKrhohate_phi, qquad K=textconstant.tag1$$ It can be easily checked that $$vecnablatimesvecv=0, qquad rhoneq 0.tag2 $$ Is it possible to write down a compact expression of $vecnablatimesvecv$ valid at the points including $rho=0$?



      Next, I want to use the Stokes theorem to calculate the value of $ointvecvcdotvecdl$. I understand that this looks like a math question. However, how would a physicist interpret this singularity in the sense that how physical it is? Will it have any important physical consequence in the sense that this singularity cannot be ignored?










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      In the cylindrical polar $(rho,phi,z)$ coordinate, suppose the velocity field in a liquid is given by $$vecv=fracKrhohate_phi, qquad K=textconstant.tag1$$ It can be easily checked that $$vecnablatimesvecv=0, qquad rhoneq 0.tag2 $$ Is it possible to write down a compact expression of $vecnablatimesvecv$ valid at the points including $rho=0$?



      Next, I want to use the Stokes theorem to calculate the value of $ointvecvcdotvecdl$. I understand that this looks like a math question. However, how would a physicist interpret this singularity in the sense that how physical it is? Will it have any important physical consequence in the sense that this singularity cannot be ignored?







      differential-geometry vector-fields singularities calculus dirac-delta-distributions






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 7 hours ago









      Qmechanic

      106k121961222




      106k121961222










      asked 8 hours ago









      mithusengupta123mithusengupta123

      1,26911539




      1,26911539




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          2












          $begingroup$

          1. Yes, it is possible to lift OP's eq. (2) to distribution theory
            $$ vecnablatimesvecv~=~2pi K ~delta(x)~delta(y)~hate_z, tagA$$
            so that Kelvin–Stokes theorem works.


          2. To see eq. (A) the simplest is probably to regularize OP's vector field (1) as as a smooth vector field $$ vecv~=~fracKrhorho^2+varepsilonhate_phi,tagB$$
            where $varepsilon>0$ is a regularization parameter. Then the curl becomes
            $$ vecnablatimesvecv~=~ K ~frac2varepsilon(rho^2+varepsilon)^2 ~hate_z. tagC$$
            Finally use the following representation of the 2D Dirac delta distribution:
            $$delta(x)delta(y)~=~frac1pilim_varepsilonto 0^+fracvarepsilon(rho^2+varepsilon)^2, qquad rho~=~sqrtx^2+y^2. tagD$$
            $Box$


          3. Physically, OP's vector field $vecv$ is like the $vecB$-field created by an electric current in a wire along the $z$-axis, cf. Ampere's circuital law.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Just to confirm: I used Stokes theorem and found the desired integral has a value $2pi K$. Is that correct answer?
            $endgroup$
            – mithusengupta123
            7 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            $uparrow$ Yes.
            $endgroup$
            – Qmechanic
            7 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Can you comment on how important is this singularity from a physical point of view? Can we say that this is a vortex?
            $endgroup$
            – mithusengupta123
            7 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            I updated the answer.
            $endgroup$
            – Qmechanic
            7 hours ago


















          1












          $begingroup$

          Mathematical answer



          Yes, one can carefully re-define field theory so that it holds in the sense
          of distributions, mainly you will end up with equations containing Dirac deltas in the right hand side (a standard textbook exercise is the calculation of the potentials generated by a moving charge).



          Physical answer



          Your example describes cases that very often do occur in physics. Take for instance
          the electric field generated by a point particle $q$: it is stated that
          $$
          textbfE(textbfr)=fracqr^2textbfu_r tag1
          $$

          up to scaling constants. Now one can easily see that most quantities derived thereupon will not
          be defined (let alone continuous) in $r=0$ as a consequence of the fact that the field itself is not defined at the origin. This per se' is not really a problem because $(1)$ holds (even if rarely stated in physics textbooks) only far away from the charge, namely as we approach $rto 0$ (without even the need to reach the origin) such formula ceases to hold true.



          This is proven in exercises when you calculate the potential (or equivalently the field) of what textbooks authors call the infinite plate, the infinite conductor, the infinite solenoid or so forth,
          namely whenever you use charge densities rather than charges themselves: this is because as you get closer to a point charge its dimensions increase and the only quantity that you can measure is the density. For those cases you can still perfectly apply Maxwell's equations, differentiate and integrate without boundaries and domain problems because, by definition, you are not in the origin
          anymore.



          To directly answer your questions:



          • if you have an equation that is undefined for some values of the coordinates (say $r=0$) this means
            that by definition you are far away from the origin, the domain of such equation is $mathbbR^3-
            left0right$
            and you need not know what happens in the origin, as it is not part of the domain.


          • if you are close to the origin, then arguably the equations must change (fields will be replaced
            by densities) and you will not have discontinuities anymore.


          If your equations describe dynamics (as I already mentioned in the example of the moving charge) and the points in the space-time where divergences occur may change (i. e. not just the origin anymore) then you must pay the price and move to distributions.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












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            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes








            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            2












            $begingroup$

            1. Yes, it is possible to lift OP's eq. (2) to distribution theory
              $$ vecnablatimesvecv~=~2pi K ~delta(x)~delta(y)~hate_z, tagA$$
              so that Kelvin–Stokes theorem works.


            2. To see eq. (A) the simplest is probably to regularize OP's vector field (1) as as a smooth vector field $$ vecv~=~fracKrhorho^2+varepsilonhate_phi,tagB$$
              where $varepsilon>0$ is a regularization parameter. Then the curl becomes
              $$ vecnablatimesvecv~=~ K ~frac2varepsilon(rho^2+varepsilon)^2 ~hate_z. tagC$$
              Finally use the following representation of the 2D Dirac delta distribution:
              $$delta(x)delta(y)~=~frac1pilim_varepsilonto 0^+fracvarepsilon(rho^2+varepsilon)^2, qquad rho~=~sqrtx^2+y^2. tagD$$
              $Box$


            3. Physically, OP's vector field $vecv$ is like the $vecB$-field created by an electric current in a wire along the $z$-axis, cf. Ampere's circuital law.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Just to confirm: I used Stokes theorem and found the desired integral has a value $2pi K$. Is that correct answer?
              $endgroup$
              – mithusengupta123
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              $uparrow$ Yes.
              $endgroup$
              – Qmechanic
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Can you comment on how important is this singularity from a physical point of view? Can we say that this is a vortex?
              $endgroup$
              – mithusengupta123
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              I updated the answer.
              $endgroup$
              – Qmechanic
              7 hours ago















            2












            $begingroup$

            1. Yes, it is possible to lift OP's eq. (2) to distribution theory
              $$ vecnablatimesvecv~=~2pi K ~delta(x)~delta(y)~hate_z, tagA$$
              so that Kelvin–Stokes theorem works.


            2. To see eq. (A) the simplest is probably to regularize OP's vector field (1) as as a smooth vector field $$ vecv~=~fracKrhorho^2+varepsilonhate_phi,tagB$$
              where $varepsilon>0$ is a regularization parameter. Then the curl becomes
              $$ vecnablatimesvecv~=~ K ~frac2varepsilon(rho^2+varepsilon)^2 ~hate_z. tagC$$
              Finally use the following representation of the 2D Dirac delta distribution:
              $$delta(x)delta(y)~=~frac1pilim_varepsilonto 0^+fracvarepsilon(rho^2+varepsilon)^2, qquad rho~=~sqrtx^2+y^2. tagD$$
              $Box$


            3. Physically, OP's vector field $vecv$ is like the $vecB$-field created by an electric current in a wire along the $z$-axis, cf. Ampere's circuital law.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Just to confirm: I used Stokes theorem and found the desired integral has a value $2pi K$. Is that correct answer?
              $endgroup$
              – mithusengupta123
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              $uparrow$ Yes.
              $endgroup$
              – Qmechanic
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Can you comment on how important is this singularity from a physical point of view? Can we say that this is a vortex?
              $endgroup$
              – mithusengupta123
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              I updated the answer.
              $endgroup$
              – Qmechanic
              7 hours ago













            2












            2








            2





            $begingroup$

            1. Yes, it is possible to lift OP's eq. (2) to distribution theory
              $$ vecnablatimesvecv~=~2pi K ~delta(x)~delta(y)~hate_z, tagA$$
              so that Kelvin–Stokes theorem works.


            2. To see eq. (A) the simplest is probably to regularize OP's vector field (1) as as a smooth vector field $$ vecv~=~fracKrhorho^2+varepsilonhate_phi,tagB$$
              where $varepsilon>0$ is a regularization parameter. Then the curl becomes
              $$ vecnablatimesvecv~=~ K ~frac2varepsilon(rho^2+varepsilon)^2 ~hate_z. tagC$$
              Finally use the following representation of the 2D Dirac delta distribution:
              $$delta(x)delta(y)~=~frac1pilim_varepsilonto 0^+fracvarepsilon(rho^2+varepsilon)^2, qquad rho~=~sqrtx^2+y^2. tagD$$
              $Box$


            3. Physically, OP's vector field $vecv$ is like the $vecB$-field created by an electric current in a wire along the $z$-axis, cf. Ampere's circuital law.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            1. Yes, it is possible to lift OP's eq. (2) to distribution theory
              $$ vecnablatimesvecv~=~2pi K ~delta(x)~delta(y)~hate_z, tagA$$
              so that Kelvin–Stokes theorem works.


            2. To see eq. (A) the simplest is probably to regularize OP's vector field (1) as as a smooth vector field $$ vecv~=~fracKrhorho^2+varepsilonhate_phi,tagB$$
              where $varepsilon>0$ is a regularization parameter. Then the curl becomes
              $$ vecnablatimesvecv~=~ K ~frac2varepsilon(rho^2+varepsilon)^2 ~hate_z. tagC$$
              Finally use the following representation of the 2D Dirac delta distribution:
              $$delta(x)delta(y)~=~frac1pilim_varepsilonto 0^+fracvarepsilon(rho^2+varepsilon)^2, qquad rho~=~sqrtx^2+y^2. tagD$$
              $Box$


            3. Physically, OP's vector field $vecv$ is like the $vecB$-field created by an electric current in a wire along the $z$-axis, cf. Ampere's circuital law.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited 7 hours ago

























            answered 7 hours ago









            QmechanicQmechanic

            106k121961222




            106k121961222











            • $begingroup$
              Just to confirm: I used Stokes theorem and found the desired integral has a value $2pi K$. Is that correct answer?
              $endgroup$
              – mithusengupta123
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              $uparrow$ Yes.
              $endgroup$
              – Qmechanic
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Can you comment on how important is this singularity from a physical point of view? Can we say that this is a vortex?
              $endgroup$
              – mithusengupta123
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              I updated the answer.
              $endgroup$
              – Qmechanic
              7 hours ago
















            • $begingroup$
              Just to confirm: I used Stokes theorem and found the desired integral has a value $2pi K$. Is that correct answer?
              $endgroup$
              – mithusengupta123
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              $uparrow$ Yes.
              $endgroup$
              – Qmechanic
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              Can you comment on how important is this singularity from a physical point of view? Can we say that this is a vortex?
              $endgroup$
              – mithusengupta123
              7 hours ago










            • $begingroup$
              I updated the answer.
              $endgroup$
              – Qmechanic
              7 hours ago















            $begingroup$
            Just to confirm: I used Stokes theorem and found the desired integral has a value $2pi K$. Is that correct answer?
            $endgroup$
            – mithusengupta123
            7 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            Just to confirm: I used Stokes theorem and found the desired integral has a value $2pi K$. Is that correct answer?
            $endgroup$
            – mithusengupta123
            7 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            $uparrow$ Yes.
            $endgroup$
            – Qmechanic
            7 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            $uparrow$ Yes.
            $endgroup$
            – Qmechanic
            7 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            Can you comment on how important is this singularity from a physical point of view? Can we say that this is a vortex?
            $endgroup$
            – mithusengupta123
            7 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            Can you comment on how important is this singularity from a physical point of view? Can we say that this is a vortex?
            $endgroup$
            – mithusengupta123
            7 hours ago












            $begingroup$
            I updated the answer.
            $endgroup$
            – Qmechanic
            7 hours ago




            $begingroup$
            I updated the answer.
            $endgroup$
            – Qmechanic
            7 hours ago











            1












            $begingroup$

            Mathematical answer



            Yes, one can carefully re-define field theory so that it holds in the sense
            of distributions, mainly you will end up with equations containing Dirac deltas in the right hand side (a standard textbook exercise is the calculation of the potentials generated by a moving charge).



            Physical answer



            Your example describes cases that very often do occur in physics. Take for instance
            the electric field generated by a point particle $q$: it is stated that
            $$
            textbfE(textbfr)=fracqr^2textbfu_r tag1
            $$

            up to scaling constants. Now one can easily see that most quantities derived thereupon will not
            be defined (let alone continuous) in $r=0$ as a consequence of the fact that the field itself is not defined at the origin. This per se' is not really a problem because $(1)$ holds (even if rarely stated in physics textbooks) only far away from the charge, namely as we approach $rto 0$ (without even the need to reach the origin) such formula ceases to hold true.



            This is proven in exercises when you calculate the potential (or equivalently the field) of what textbooks authors call the infinite plate, the infinite conductor, the infinite solenoid or so forth,
            namely whenever you use charge densities rather than charges themselves: this is because as you get closer to a point charge its dimensions increase and the only quantity that you can measure is the density. For those cases you can still perfectly apply Maxwell's equations, differentiate and integrate without boundaries and domain problems because, by definition, you are not in the origin
            anymore.



            To directly answer your questions:



            • if you have an equation that is undefined for some values of the coordinates (say $r=0$) this means
              that by definition you are far away from the origin, the domain of such equation is $mathbbR^3-
              left0right$
              and you need not know what happens in the origin, as it is not part of the domain.


            • if you are close to the origin, then arguably the equations must change (fields will be replaced
              by densities) and you will not have discontinuities anymore.


            If your equations describe dynamics (as I already mentioned in the example of the moving charge) and the points in the space-time where divergences occur may change (i. e. not just the origin anymore) then you must pay the price and move to distributions.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$

















              1












              $begingroup$

              Mathematical answer



              Yes, one can carefully re-define field theory so that it holds in the sense
              of distributions, mainly you will end up with equations containing Dirac deltas in the right hand side (a standard textbook exercise is the calculation of the potentials generated by a moving charge).



              Physical answer



              Your example describes cases that very often do occur in physics. Take for instance
              the electric field generated by a point particle $q$: it is stated that
              $$
              textbfE(textbfr)=fracqr^2textbfu_r tag1
              $$

              up to scaling constants. Now one can easily see that most quantities derived thereupon will not
              be defined (let alone continuous) in $r=0$ as a consequence of the fact that the field itself is not defined at the origin. This per se' is not really a problem because $(1)$ holds (even if rarely stated in physics textbooks) only far away from the charge, namely as we approach $rto 0$ (without even the need to reach the origin) such formula ceases to hold true.



              This is proven in exercises when you calculate the potential (or equivalently the field) of what textbooks authors call the infinite plate, the infinite conductor, the infinite solenoid or so forth,
              namely whenever you use charge densities rather than charges themselves: this is because as you get closer to a point charge its dimensions increase and the only quantity that you can measure is the density. For those cases you can still perfectly apply Maxwell's equations, differentiate and integrate without boundaries and domain problems because, by definition, you are not in the origin
              anymore.



              To directly answer your questions:



              • if you have an equation that is undefined for some values of the coordinates (say $r=0$) this means
                that by definition you are far away from the origin, the domain of such equation is $mathbbR^3-
                left0right$
                and you need not know what happens in the origin, as it is not part of the domain.


              • if you are close to the origin, then arguably the equations must change (fields will be replaced
                by densities) and you will not have discontinuities anymore.


              If your equations describe dynamics (as I already mentioned in the example of the moving charge) and the points in the space-time where divergences occur may change (i. e. not just the origin anymore) then you must pay the price and move to distributions.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$















                1












                1








                1





                $begingroup$

                Mathematical answer



                Yes, one can carefully re-define field theory so that it holds in the sense
                of distributions, mainly you will end up with equations containing Dirac deltas in the right hand side (a standard textbook exercise is the calculation of the potentials generated by a moving charge).



                Physical answer



                Your example describes cases that very often do occur in physics. Take for instance
                the electric field generated by a point particle $q$: it is stated that
                $$
                textbfE(textbfr)=fracqr^2textbfu_r tag1
                $$

                up to scaling constants. Now one can easily see that most quantities derived thereupon will not
                be defined (let alone continuous) in $r=0$ as a consequence of the fact that the field itself is not defined at the origin. This per se' is not really a problem because $(1)$ holds (even if rarely stated in physics textbooks) only far away from the charge, namely as we approach $rto 0$ (without even the need to reach the origin) such formula ceases to hold true.



                This is proven in exercises when you calculate the potential (or equivalently the field) of what textbooks authors call the infinite plate, the infinite conductor, the infinite solenoid or so forth,
                namely whenever you use charge densities rather than charges themselves: this is because as you get closer to a point charge its dimensions increase and the only quantity that you can measure is the density. For those cases you can still perfectly apply Maxwell's equations, differentiate and integrate without boundaries and domain problems because, by definition, you are not in the origin
                anymore.



                To directly answer your questions:



                • if you have an equation that is undefined for some values of the coordinates (say $r=0$) this means
                  that by definition you are far away from the origin, the domain of such equation is $mathbbR^3-
                  left0right$
                  and you need not know what happens in the origin, as it is not part of the domain.


                • if you are close to the origin, then arguably the equations must change (fields will be replaced
                  by densities) and you will not have discontinuities anymore.


                If your equations describe dynamics (as I already mentioned in the example of the moving charge) and the points in the space-time where divergences occur may change (i. e. not just the origin anymore) then you must pay the price and move to distributions.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$



                Mathematical answer



                Yes, one can carefully re-define field theory so that it holds in the sense
                of distributions, mainly you will end up with equations containing Dirac deltas in the right hand side (a standard textbook exercise is the calculation of the potentials generated by a moving charge).



                Physical answer



                Your example describes cases that very often do occur in physics. Take for instance
                the electric field generated by a point particle $q$: it is stated that
                $$
                textbfE(textbfr)=fracqr^2textbfu_r tag1
                $$

                up to scaling constants. Now one can easily see that most quantities derived thereupon will not
                be defined (let alone continuous) in $r=0$ as a consequence of the fact that the field itself is not defined at the origin. This per se' is not really a problem because $(1)$ holds (even if rarely stated in physics textbooks) only far away from the charge, namely as we approach $rto 0$ (without even the need to reach the origin) such formula ceases to hold true.



                This is proven in exercises when you calculate the potential (or equivalently the field) of what textbooks authors call the infinite plate, the infinite conductor, the infinite solenoid or so forth,
                namely whenever you use charge densities rather than charges themselves: this is because as you get closer to a point charge its dimensions increase and the only quantity that you can measure is the density. For those cases you can still perfectly apply Maxwell's equations, differentiate and integrate without boundaries and domain problems because, by definition, you are not in the origin
                anymore.



                To directly answer your questions:



                • if you have an equation that is undefined for some values of the coordinates (say $r=0$) this means
                  that by definition you are far away from the origin, the domain of such equation is $mathbbR^3-
                  left0right$
                  and you need not know what happens in the origin, as it is not part of the domain.


                • if you are close to the origin, then arguably the equations must change (fields will be replaced
                  by densities) and you will not have discontinuities anymore.


                If your equations describe dynamics (as I already mentioned in the example of the moving charge) and the points in the space-time where divergences occur may change (i. e. not just the origin anymore) then you must pay the price and move to distributions.







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                answered 7 hours ago









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