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to begin with vs in the first place
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InWhat does ‘the first-person epiphany’ mean?Does “end up with something” always mean possession? (Harry Potter spoilers)What does “fast eye” mean?Semantic difference between “if I did not want” and “if I wanted”What is meaning of “Sulking though”?Single verb for “explained hesitantly”?The right word or phrase of an act of telling false bad stories about someone deliberately?Is the form “double Dutch” still used?“First item from both sets” vs “First items from both sets”Origin of “walk and talk”
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
I was wondering if it would be grammatically and idiomatically correct to use to begin with in the sense of
used at the end of a sentence to talk about why something was done or
whether it should have been done or not
For example :
If you don’t like her, why invite her in the first place?
I should never have taken that job in the first place.
Is it possible to say :
If you don’t like her, why invite her to begin with?
I should never have taken that job to begin with.
phrases
asked Apr 8 '16 at 19:13
MrtMrt
67022249
bumped to the homepage by Community♦ 4 hours ago
This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed.
add a comment |
I was wondering if it would be grammatically and idiomatically correct to use to begin with in the sense of
used at the end of a sentence to talk about why something was done or
whether it should have been done or not
For example :
If you don’t like her, why invite her in the first place?
I should never have taken that job in the first place.
Is it possible to say :
If you don’t like her, why invite her to begin with?
I should never have taken that job to begin with.
phrases
asked Apr 8 '16 at 19:13
MrtMrt
67022249
bumped to the homepage by Community♦ 4 hours ago
This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed.
1
Interesting. I'd always choose the 'in the first place' option, but the fourth sentence sounds not unacceptable.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 8 '16 at 19:41
@Edwin Ashworth - Sentence #3 doesn't quite get one slain by the fords of Jordan either. It does ring a trifle oddly for reasons I can't quie articulate.
– Rob_Ster
Apr 9 '16 at 1:23
Why add either? Don't the original sentences convey the same meaning in the form 'If you don't like her, why invite her?' and 'I should never have taken that job.'
– Icy
Apr 9 '16 at 4:27
@Icy The terminal 'in the first place' is idiomatic if redundant, and has a pragmatic role (emphasis) and a prosodic role.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 9 '16 at 9:06
@Rob “quie” should be quite?
– P Smith
Feb 9 '18 at 1:14
add a comment |
I was wondering if it would be grammatically and idiomatically correct to use to begin with in the sense of
used at the end of a sentence to talk about why something was done or
whether it should have been done or not
For example :
If you don’t like her, why invite her in the first place?
I should never have taken that job in the first place.
Is it possible to say :
If you don’t like her, why invite her to begin with?
I should never have taken that job to begin with.
phrases
asked Apr 8 '16 at 19:13
MrtMrt
67022249
I was wondering if it would be grammatically and idiomatically correct to use to begin with in the sense of
used at the end of a sentence to talk about why something was done or
whether it should have been done or not
For example :
If you don’t like her, why invite her in the first place?
I should never have taken that job in the first place.
Is it possible to say :
If you don’t like her, why invite her to begin with?
I should never have taken that job to begin with.
phrases
phrases
asked Apr 8 '16 at 19:13
MrtMrt
67022249
asked Apr 8 '16 at 19:13
MrtMrt
67022249
asked Apr 8 '16 at 19:13
MrtMrt
67022249
asked Apr 8 '16 at 19:13
MrtMrt
67022249
asked Apr 8 '16 at 19:13
MrtMrt
67022249
67022249
bumped to the homepage by Community♦ 4 hours ago
This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed.
bumped to the homepage by Community♦ 4 hours ago
This question has answers that may be good or bad; the system has marked it active so that they can be reviewed.
1
Interesting. I'd always choose the 'in the first place' option, but the fourth sentence sounds not unacceptable.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 8 '16 at 19:41
@Edwin Ashworth - Sentence #3 doesn't quite get one slain by the fords of Jordan either. It does ring a trifle oddly for reasons I can't quie articulate.
– Rob_Ster
Apr 9 '16 at 1:23
Why add either? Don't the original sentences convey the same meaning in the form 'If you don't like her, why invite her?' and 'I should never have taken that job.'
– Icy
Apr 9 '16 at 4:27
@Icy The terminal 'in the first place' is idiomatic if redundant, and has a pragmatic role (emphasis) and a prosodic role.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 9 '16 at 9:06
@Rob “quie” should be quite?
– P Smith
Feb 9 '18 at 1:14
add a comment |
1
Interesting. I'd always choose the 'in the first place' option, but the fourth sentence sounds not unacceptable.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 8 '16 at 19:41
@Edwin Ashworth - Sentence #3 doesn't quite get one slain by the fords of Jordan either. It does ring a trifle oddly for reasons I can't quie articulate.
– Rob_Ster
Apr 9 '16 at 1:23
Why add either? Don't the original sentences convey the same meaning in the form 'If you don't like her, why invite her?' and 'I should never have taken that job.'
– Icy
Apr 9 '16 at 4:27
@Icy The terminal 'in the first place' is idiomatic if redundant, and has a pragmatic role (emphasis) and a prosodic role.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 9 '16 at 9:06
@Rob “quie” should be quite?
– P Smith
Feb 9 '18 at 1:14
1
1
Interesting. I'd always choose the 'in the first place' option, but the fourth sentence sounds not unacceptable.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 8 '16 at 19:41
Interesting. I'd always choose the 'in the first place' option, but the fourth sentence sounds not unacceptable.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 8 '16 at 19:41
@Edwin Ashworth - Sentence #3 doesn't quite get one slain by the fords of Jordan either. It does ring a trifle oddly for reasons I can't quie articulate.
– Rob_Ster
Apr 9 '16 at 1:23
@Edwin Ashworth - Sentence #3 doesn't quite get one slain by the fords of Jordan either. It does ring a trifle oddly for reasons I can't quie articulate.
– Rob_Ster
Apr 9 '16 at 1:23
Why add either? Don't the original sentences convey the same meaning in the form 'If you don't like her, why invite her?' and 'I should never have taken that job.'
– Icy
Apr 9 '16 at 4:27
Why add either? Don't the original sentences convey the same meaning in the form 'If you don't like her, why invite her?' and 'I should never have taken that job.'
– Icy
Apr 9 '16 at 4:27
@Icy The terminal 'in the first place' is idiomatic if redundant, and has a pragmatic role (emphasis) and a prosodic role.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 9 '16 at 9:06
@Icy The terminal 'in the first place' is idiomatic if redundant, and has a pragmatic role (emphasis) and a prosodic role.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 9 '16 at 9:06
@Rob “quie” should be quite?
– P Smith
Feb 9 '18 at 1:14
@Rob “quie” should be quite?
– P Smith
Feb 9 '18 at 1:14
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
Yes, you can use it. You can google it and check for references; here's one that you can bear out, from
Invincible
By Dustin Humphreys.
"Listen, we should never have taken that job to begin with," he said.
edited Feb 8 '18 at 20:56
Edwin Ashworth
49.2k1090156
answered Feb 8 '18 at 19:14
DanellyDanelly
13
1
Hello, Danelly. A single or a few Google hits don't license a usage as standard.
– Edwin Ashworth
Feb 8 '18 at 20:55
1
They mean the same thing, but if you say "first", you are implicitly promising at least one labelled "second", to follow, if not more. This is not true of to begin with.
– John Lawler
Feb 8 '18 at 22:49
@JohnLawler, that's part of what makes a term/phrase idiomatic, that is to say, it may not make a great deal of sense except as it's contextually understood via a priori usages. As to 'standard' idioms.. once an idiomatic expression is standard it can hardly be considered idiomatic any longer.
– Giu Piete
Feb 26 at 17:50
add a comment |
Both are used, "in the first place" more than "to begin with".
I've done three Google Ngram queries but take them with a grain of salt.
The first one is a general search of the phrases not considering their position in the sentence.
The second one does take the position at the end of the sentence into account but since Ngram can't do START or END operations with longer phrases the results are only for "first place" and "begin with".
So they're also not as accurate as I'd like them to be.
The third one is done with a "." at the end of the phrase but that excludes sentences that end with "!" or "?" or any thing else.
In the end both are valid I think.
answered Mar 12 at 9:40
DracoTomesDracoTomes
1153
add a comment |
"Never end a sentence in a preposition" is what they always told me in school. Therefore, I usually say "in the first place".
answered Mar 8 at 21:02
user339389user339389
1
1
That is a myth or "zombie rule" blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/28/…
– James Random
Mar 8 at 21:13
You mean like "... up with which I will not put."? :-)
– TrevorD
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Yes, you can use it. You can google it and check for references; here's one that you can bear out, from
Invincible
By Dustin Humphreys.
"Listen, we should never have taken that job to begin with," he said.
edited Feb 8 '18 at 20:56
Edwin Ashworth
49.2k1090156
answered Feb 8 '18 at 19:14
DanellyDanelly
13
1
Hello, Danelly. A single or a few Google hits don't license a usage as standard.
– Edwin Ashworth
Feb 8 '18 at 20:55
1
They mean the same thing, but if you say "first", you are implicitly promising at least one labelled "second", to follow, if not more. This is not true of to begin with.
– John Lawler
Feb 8 '18 at 22:49
@JohnLawler, that's part of what makes a term/phrase idiomatic, that is to say, it may not make a great deal of sense except as it's contextually understood via a priori usages. As to 'standard' idioms.. once an idiomatic expression is standard it can hardly be considered idiomatic any longer.
– Giu Piete
Feb 26 at 17:50
add a comment |
Yes, you can use it. You can google it and check for references; here's one that you can bear out, from
Invincible
By Dustin Humphreys.
"Listen, we should never have taken that job to begin with," he said.
edited Feb 8 '18 at 20:56
Edwin Ashworth
49.2k1090156
answered Feb 8 '18 at 19:14
DanellyDanelly
13
1
Hello, Danelly. A single or a few Google hits don't license a usage as standard.
– Edwin Ashworth
Feb 8 '18 at 20:55
1
They mean the same thing, but if you say "first", you are implicitly promising at least one labelled "second", to follow, if not more. This is not true of to begin with.
– John Lawler
Feb 8 '18 at 22:49
@JohnLawler, that's part of what makes a term/phrase idiomatic, that is to say, it may not make a great deal of sense except as it's contextually understood via a priori usages. As to 'standard' idioms.. once an idiomatic expression is standard it can hardly be considered idiomatic any longer.
– Giu Piete
Feb 26 at 17:50
add a comment |
Yes, you can use it. You can google it and check for references; here's one that you can bear out, from
Invincible
By Dustin Humphreys.
"Listen, we should never have taken that job to begin with," he said.
edited Feb 8 '18 at 20:56
Edwin Ashworth
49.2k1090156
answered Feb 8 '18 at 19:14
DanellyDanelly
13
Yes, you can use it. You can google it and check for references; here's one that you can bear out, from
Invincible
By Dustin Humphreys.
"Listen, we should never have taken that job to begin with," he said.
edited Feb 8 '18 at 20:56
Edwin Ashworth
49.2k1090156
answered Feb 8 '18 at 19:14
DanellyDanelly
13
edited Feb 8 '18 at 20:56
Edwin Ashworth
49.2k1090156
edited Feb 8 '18 at 20:56
Edwin Ashworth
49.2k1090156
edited Feb 8 '18 at 20:56
Edwin Ashworth
49.2k1090156
49.2k1090156
answered Feb 8 '18 at 19:14
DanellyDanelly
13
answered Feb 8 '18 at 19:14
DanellyDanelly
13
answered Feb 8 '18 at 19:14
DanellyDanelly
13
13
1
Hello, Danelly. A single or a few Google hits don't license a usage as standard.
– Edwin Ashworth
Feb 8 '18 at 20:55
1
They mean the same thing, but if you say "first", you are implicitly promising at least one labelled "second", to follow, if not more. This is not true of to begin with.
– John Lawler
Feb 8 '18 at 22:49
@JohnLawler, that's part of what makes a term/phrase idiomatic, that is to say, it may not make a great deal of sense except as it's contextually understood via a priori usages. As to 'standard' idioms.. once an idiomatic expression is standard it can hardly be considered idiomatic any longer.
– Giu Piete
Feb 26 at 17:50
add a comment |
1
Hello, Danelly. A single or a few Google hits don't license a usage as standard.
– Edwin Ashworth
Feb 8 '18 at 20:55
1
They mean the same thing, but if you say "first", you are implicitly promising at least one labelled "second", to follow, if not more. This is not true of to begin with.
– John Lawler
Feb 8 '18 at 22:49
@JohnLawler, that's part of what makes a term/phrase idiomatic, that is to say, it may not make a great deal of sense except as it's contextually understood via a priori usages. As to 'standard' idioms.. once an idiomatic expression is standard it can hardly be considered idiomatic any longer.
– Giu Piete
Feb 26 at 17:50
1
1
Hello, Danelly. A single or a few Google hits don't license a usage as standard.
– Edwin Ashworth
Feb 8 '18 at 20:55
Hello, Danelly. A single or a few Google hits don't license a usage as standard.
– Edwin Ashworth
Feb 8 '18 at 20:55
1
1
They mean the same thing, but if you say "first", you are implicitly promising at least one labelled "second", to follow, if not more. This is not true of to begin with.
– John Lawler
Feb 8 '18 at 22:49
They mean the same thing, but if you say "first", you are implicitly promising at least one labelled "second", to follow, if not more. This is not true of to begin with.
– John Lawler
Feb 8 '18 at 22:49
@JohnLawler, that's part of what makes a term/phrase idiomatic, that is to say, it may not make a great deal of sense except as it's contextually understood via a priori usages. As to 'standard' idioms.. once an idiomatic expression is standard it can hardly be considered idiomatic any longer.
– Giu Piete
Feb 26 at 17:50
@JohnLawler, that's part of what makes a term/phrase idiomatic, that is to say, it may not make a great deal of sense except as it's contextually understood via a priori usages. As to 'standard' idioms.. once an idiomatic expression is standard it can hardly be considered idiomatic any longer.
– Giu Piete
Feb 26 at 17:50
add a comment |
Both are used, "in the first place" more than "to begin with".
I've done three Google Ngram queries but take them with a grain of salt.
The first one is a general search of the phrases not considering their position in the sentence.
The second one does take the position at the end of the sentence into account but since Ngram can't do START or END operations with longer phrases the results are only for "first place" and "begin with".
So they're also not as accurate as I'd like them to be.
The third one is done with a "." at the end of the phrase but that excludes sentences that end with "!" or "?" or any thing else.
In the end both are valid I think.
answered Mar 12 at 9:40
DracoTomesDracoTomes
1153
add a comment |
Both are used, "in the first place" more than "to begin with".
I've done three Google Ngram queries but take them with a grain of salt.
The first one is a general search of the phrases not considering their position in the sentence.
The second one does take the position at the end of the sentence into account but since Ngram can't do START or END operations with longer phrases the results are only for "first place" and "begin with".
So they're also not as accurate as I'd like them to be.
The third one is done with a "." at the end of the phrase but that excludes sentences that end with "!" or "?" or any thing else.
In the end both are valid I think.
answered Mar 12 at 9:40
DracoTomesDracoTomes
1153
add a comment |
Both are used, "in the first place" more than "to begin with".
I've done three Google Ngram queries but take them with a grain of salt.
The first one is a general search of the phrases not considering their position in the sentence.
The second one does take the position at the end of the sentence into account but since Ngram can't do START or END operations with longer phrases the results are only for "first place" and "begin with".
So they're also not as accurate as I'd like them to be.
The third one is done with a "." at the end of the phrase but that excludes sentences that end with "!" or "?" or any thing else.
In the end both are valid I think.
answered Mar 12 at 9:40
DracoTomesDracoTomes
1153
Both are used, "in the first place" more than "to begin with".
I've done three Google Ngram queries but take them with a grain of salt.
The first one is a general search of the phrases not considering their position in the sentence.
The second one does take the position at the end of the sentence into account but since Ngram can't do START or END operations with longer phrases the results are only for "first place" and "begin with".
So they're also not as accurate as I'd like them to be.
The third one is done with a "." at the end of the phrase but that excludes sentences that end with "!" or "?" or any thing else.
In the end both are valid I think.
answered Mar 12 at 9:40
DracoTomesDracoTomes
1153
answered Mar 12 at 9:40
DracoTomesDracoTomes
1153
answered Mar 12 at 9:40
DracoTomesDracoTomes
1153
answered Mar 12 at 9:40
DracoTomesDracoTomes
1153
1153
add a comment |
add a comment |
"Never end a sentence in a preposition" is what they always told me in school. Therefore, I usually say "in the first place".
answered Mar 8 at 21:02
user339389user339389
1
1
That is a myth or "zombie rule" blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/28/…
– James Random
Mar 8 at 21:13
You mean like "... up with which I will not put."? :-)
– TrevorD
4 hours ago
add a comment |
"Never end a sentence in a preposition" is what they always told me in school. Therefore, I usually say "in the first place".
answered Mar 8 at 21:02
user339389user339389
1
1
That is a myth or "zombie rule" blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/28/…
– James Random
Mar 8 at 21:13
You mean like "... up with which I will not put."? :-)
– TrevorD
4 hours ago
add a comment |
"Never end a sentence in a preposition" is what they always told me in school. Therefore, I usually say "in the first place".
answered Mar 8 at 21:02
user339389user339389
1
"Never end a sentence in a preposition" is what they always told me in school. Therefore, I usually say "in the first place".
answered Mar 8 at 21:02
user339389user339389
1
answered Mar 8 at 21:02
user339389user339389
1
answered Mar 8 at 21:02
user339389user339389
1
answered Mar 8 at 21:02
user339389user339389
1
1
1
That is a myth or "zombie rule" blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/28/…
– James Random
Mar 8 at 21:13
You mean like "... up with which I will not put."? :-)
– TrevorD
4 hours ago
add a comment |
1
That is a myth or "zombie rule" blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/28/…
– James Random
Mar 8 at 21:13
You mean like "... up with which I will not put."? :-)
– TrevorD
4 hours ago
1
1
That is a myth or "zombie rule" blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/28/…
– James Random
Mar 8 at 21:13
That is a myth or "zombie rule" blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2011/11/28/…
– James Random
Mar 8 at 21:13
You mean like "... up with which I will not put."? :-)
– TrevorD
4 hours ago
You mean like "... up with which I will not put."? :-)
– TrevorD
4 hours ago
add a comment |
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1
Interesting. I'd always choose the 'in the first place' option, but the fourth sentence sounds not unacceptable.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 8 '16 at 19:41
@Edwin Ashworth - Sentence #3 doesn't quite get one slain by the fords of Jordan either. It does ring a trifle oddly for reasons I can't quie articulate.
– Rob_Ster
Apr 9 '16 at 1:23
Why add either? Don't the original sentences convey the same meaning in the form 'If you don't like her, why invite her?' and 'I should never have taken that job.'
– Icy
Apr 9 '16 at 4:27
@Icy The terminal 'in the first place' is idiomatic if redundant, and has a pragmatic role (emphasis) and a prosodic role.
– Edwin Ashworth
Apr 9 '16 at 9:06
@Rob “quie” should be quite?
– P Smith
Feb 9 '18 at 1:14