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What killed these X2 caps?


iPhone programmable capswhat is the value of these capacitors?What are these capacitors?What is the difference between these circuit?what frequencies do caps filter?What are these electrolytic capacitors?Replace foil caps with ceramic caps?Dimensioning smoothing capacitor for China DIY LED lampWhat is the type of these caps?Are these circuits equivalents (caps in parallel with VCC)













11












$begingroup$


A few years ago, I designed an MCU-controlled dimmer driving a 150W mains halogen lamp. This is in Western Europe; 50Hz 230VAC. It uses X2-rated capacitors as capacitive droppers for the power supply, and another X2-rated capacitor for interference suppression:



Circuit diagram of MCU-controlled leading-edge phase cutting dimmer



The dimmer has gradually started misbehaving, and on debugging I found that all of the X2 caps have died (meaning they have less than 10% of their rated capacitance remaining):



Pictures of C1, C2, C5, Cnew



The caps in the picture:




  • C1, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.4nF


  • C2, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.9nF


  • C5, interference suppression, should be 100nF, measures 1.4nF


  • Cnew, fresh cap not from circuit, measures 93nF

All of them measure open circuit (>40MΩ) on resistance.



C1, C2, and Cnew are labeled MEX/TENTA MKP 0.1µF K X2 275VAC 40/100/21 [approval logos] EN 60384-14 01-14 250VAC; 275VAC nominal rated (significantly higher withstanding voltage, datasheet here). They are all from the same batch, bought in Sep 2016. I suspect 01-14 is a date code, so they'd be from early 2014.



C5 is from the same brand; it has virtually the same markings (except EN 132400), but is physically larger. I got it as part of some Velleman kit years ago, where it was also used as a suppression cap. No datasheet.



What caused these caps to lose their capacitance?



  • Is this deterioration normal behaviour for X2 caps? The dimmer saw a lot of use, being powered for an estimated 7000 hours.

  • Should I have derated the caps more? I agree 230VAC is pretty close to 275VAC, but as I understand it that is their nominal rating, and they should be able to handle transients way above that. Also, 275VAC seems by far the most common rating available on Digikey and the like.

  • Am I using the capacitors wrong somehow?

  • Are these capacitors from a bad brand/series/batch?









share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
    $endgroup$
    – Transistor
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
    $endgroup$
    – marcelm
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Voigt
    6 hours ago















11












$begingroup$


A few years ago, I designed an MCU-controlled dimmer driving a 150W mains halogen lamp. This is in Western Europe; 50Hz 230VAC. It uses X2-rated capacitors as capacitive droppers for the power supply, and another X2-rated capacitor for interference suppression:



Circuit diagram of MCU-controlled leading-edge phase cutting dimmer



The dimmer has gradually started misbehaving, and on debugging I found that all of the X2 caps have died (meaning they have less than 10% of their rated capacitance remaining):



Pictures of C1, C2, C5, Cnew



The caps in the picture:




  • C1, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.4nF


  • C2, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.9nF


  • C5, interference suppression, should be 100nF, measures 1.4nF


  • Cnew, fresh cap not from circuit, measures 93nF

All of them measure open circuit (>40MΩ) on resistance.



C1, C2, and Cnew are labeled MEX/TENTA MKP 0.1µF K X2 275VAC 40/100/21 [approval logos] EN 60384-14 01-14 250VAC; 275VAC nominal rated (significantly higher withstanding voltage, datasheet here). They are all from the same batch, bought in Sep 2016. I suspect 01-14 is a date code, so they'd be from early 2014.



C5 is from the same brand; it has virtually the same markings (except EN 132400), but is physically larger. I got it as part of some Velleman kit years ago, where it was also used as a suppression cap. No datasheet.



What caused these caps to lose their capacitance?



  • Is this deterioration normal behaviour for X2 caps? The dimmer saw a lot of use, being powered for an estimated 7000 hours.

  • Should I have derated the caps more? I agree 230VAC is pretty close to 275VAC, but as I understand it that is their nominal rating, and they should be able to handle transients way above that. Also, 275VAC seems by far the most common rating available on Digikey and the like.

  • Am I using the capacitors wrong somehow?

  • Are these capacitors from a bad brand/series/batch?









share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
    $endgroup$
    – Transistor
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
    $endgroup$
    – marcelm
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Voigt
    6 hours ago













11












11








11


1



$begingroup$


A few years ago, I designed an MCU-controlled dimmer driving a 150W mains halogen lamp. This is in Western Europe; 50Hz 230VAC. It uses X2-rated capacitors as capacitive droppers for the power supply, and another X2-rated capacitor for interference suppression:



Circuit diagram of MCU-controlled leading-edge phase cutting dimmer



The dimmer has gradually started misbehaving, and on debugging I found that all of the X2 caps have died (meaning they have less than 10% of their rated capacitance remaining):



Pictures of C1, C2, C5, Cnew



The caps in the picture:




  • C1, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.4nF


  • C2, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.9nF


  • C5, interference suppression, should be 100nF, measures 1.4nF


  • Cnew, fresh cap not from circuit, measures 93nF

All of them measure open circuit (>40MΩ) on resistance.



C1, C2, and Cnew are labeled MEX/TENTA MKP 0.1µF K X2 275VAC 40/100/21 [approval logos] EN 60384-14 01-14 250VAC; 275VAC nominal rated (significantly higher withstanding voltage, datasheet here). They are all from the same batch, bought in Sep 2016. I suspect 01-14 is a date code, so they'd be from early 2014.



C5 is from the same brand; it has virtually the same markings (except EN 132400), but is physically larger. I got it as part of some Velleman kit years ago, where it was also used as a suppression cap. No datasheet.



What caused these caps to lose their capacitance?



  • Is this deterioration normal behaviour for X2 caps? The dimmer saw a lot of use, being powered for an estimated 7000 hours.

  • Should I have derated the caps more? I agree 230VAC is pretty close to 275VAC, but as I understand it that is their nominal rating, and they should be able to handle transients way above that. Also, 275VAC seems by far the most common rating available on Digikey and the like.

  • Am I using the capacitors wrong somehow?

  • Are these capacitors from a bad brand/series/batch?









share|improve this question











$endgroup$




A few years ago, I designed an MCU-controlled dimmer driving a 150W mains halogen lamp. This is in Western Europe; 50Hz 230VAC. It uses X2-rated capacitors as capacitive droppers for the power supply, and another X2-rated capacitor for interference suppression:



Circuit diagram of MCU-controlled leading-edge phase cutting dimmer



The dimmer has gradually started misbehaving, and on debugging I found that all of the X2 caps have died (meaning they have less than 10% of their rated capacitance remaining):



Pictures of C1, C2, C5, Cnew



The caps in the picture:




  • C1, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.4nF


  • C2, capacitive dropper, should be 100nF, measures 6.9nF


  • C5, interference suppression, should be 100nF, measures 1.4nF


  • Cnew, fresh cap not from circuit, measures 93nF

All of them measure open circuit (>40MΩ) on resistance.



C1, C2, and Cnew are labeled MEX/TENTA MKP 0.1µF K X2 275VAC 40/100/21 [approval logos] EN 60384-14 01-14 250VAC; 275VAC nominal rated (significantly higher withstanding voltage, datasheet here). They are all from the same batch, bought in Sep 2016. I suspect 01-14 is a date code, so they'd be from early 2014.



C5 is from the same brand; it has virtually the same markings (except EN 132400), but is physically larger. I got it as part of some Velleman kit years ago, where it was also used as a suppression cap. No datasheet.



What caused these caps to lose their capacitance?



  • Is this deterioration normal behaviour for X2 caps? The dimmer saw a lot of use, being powered for an estimated 7000 hours.

  • Should I have derated the caps more? I agree 230VAC is pretty close to 275VAC, but as I understand it that is their nominal rating, and they should be able to handle transients way above that. Also, 275VAC seems by far the most common rating available on Digikey and the like.

  • Am I using the capacitors wrong somehow?

  • Are these capacitors from a bad brand/series/batch?






capacitor mains x-capacitor






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 7 hours ago







marcelm

















asked 8 hours ago









marcelmmarcelm

1,3971717




1,3971717







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
    $endgroup$
    – Transistor
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
    $endgroup$
    – marcelm
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Voigt
    6 hours ago












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
    $endgroup$
    – Transistor
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
    $endgroup$
    – marcelm
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Voigt
    6 hours ago







1




1




$begingroup$
Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
$endgroup$
– Transistor
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
Western Europe is 50 Hz, not 60 Hz.
$endgroup$
– Transistor
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
@Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
$endgroup$
– marcelm
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Transistor Of course! I'm not sure what I was thinking when I typed 60Hz... Thanks and fixed!
$endgroup$
– marcelm
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
$endgroup$
– Ben Voigt
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
230VAC is RMS, is the capacitor withstand specification of 275VAC peak or RMS? You're exposing these to a cyclic peak of 325V, nevermind abnormal conditions.
$endgroup$
– Ben Voigt
6 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















9












$begingroup$

The film capacitors are made to be "self healing" which just means that when they develop a short due to abuse the area around the short gets blown away, reducing the capacitance.



It appears your application has frequent transients either from within or without that exceed the design capability of the capacitors. You can try to track them down at the source, attempt to shunt them with something like a bipolar TVS across the caps, or buy better (higher voltage rated) capacitors.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Or X1 if they will fit.
    $endgroup$
    – Robert Endl
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Are you sure these caps are rated for Pulse charging/discharging applications? I think it is for RF coupling or RFI suppression NOT switching 150W loads from Triacs or Offline diode pulse regulators that draw 10x peak/avg current for 10% ripple.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Obviously the parts cannot tolerate this application and are all damaged. Self healing is only for random lightning events not absorbing 1~2A pulses every cycle.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    5 hours ago











  • $begingroup$
    Even a higher voltage rated cap is not enough here, since the issue is the maximum current the cap can handle (in the order of 1A). You need a cap that can deal with such current without damage.
    $endgroup$
    – xryl669
    5 hours ago


















5












$begingroup$

These are Interference Suppression Capacitors and have excellent properties of flame retardance, self-healing, spark killers but these are NOT intended for continuous series pulse charging as they are used in this with a Triac in a dim Halogen surge load.



Although they do not come out and say this in the datasheet, my experience from similar MEX-X2 caps tells me this from prior experience and backed up by Vishay-Roederstein similar MKP X2 datasheets.



In the fine print TENTA specs indicate a MAXIMUM RISE TIME 250Vac:120V/microsecond. This implies the maximum current it can handle using Ic=CdV/dt with dV/dt rated at 120V/us max.



So how is the pulse current in this design?
C5 across Triac may see continuous current spikes of about 1 A when operating the bulb at 90 deg phase control on peak voltage.



This will significantly reduce the life of the capacitor.



For a 150W Tungsten lamp operating at 240Vrms 340Vp at 90 deg phase on Triac, the bulb draws about 100W and has cooled down to a dim 1200'K with R= 240 Ohms and C5 across Triac and 1.5mH inductor discharges the 350Vp cap voltage with the resistance of the Choke and triac



Vishay Roederstein AC-Capacitors, Suppression Capacitors APPLICATION NOTES
Class X2 AC 275 V (MKT)



• For X2 electromagnetic interference suppression in across the line applications (50/60 Hz) with a maximum mains voltage of
275 V (AC).
• These capacitors are not intended for continuous pulse applications. For these situations, capacitors of the AC and pulse
programs must be used
.



These capacitors are not intended for series impedance application. For these situations in case safety approvals are requested, please refer to our special capacitors of 1772 series with internal series connection.




The F1772 datasheets are not much better.



These capacitors are not intended for continuous pulse applications. For these situations, capacitors of the AC and pulse
programs must be used.
• These capacitors can be used for series impedance application in case safety approvals are requested.
The F1772 series caps also give warnings



In my experience if a datasheet does not include 1 of the following { ESR specs, or rated ripple current rms, then it is not intended for high pulse , low ESR operation. For example motor Start/Run Caps never include any of the above and are know to have poorer ESR characteristics since they operate in circuits with higher resistance unlike SMPS or AC diode/Triac offline switch caps.



Conclusion



  • Unreliable power dim design from high stress topology and selection of marginally unacceptable caps.


  • I could suggest a better AC-DC supply.



    enter image description here







share|improve this answer











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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    9












    $begingroup$

    The film capacitors are made to be "self healing" which just means that when they develop a short due to abuse the area around the short gets blown away, reducing the capacitance.



    It appears your application has frequent transients either from within or without that exceed the design capability of the capacitors. You can try to track them down at the source, attempt to shunt them with something like a bipolar TVS across the caps, or buy better (higher voltage rated) capacitors.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Or X1 if they will fit.
      $endgroup$
      – Robert Endl
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Are you sure these caps are rated for Pulse charging/discharging applications? I think it is for RF coupling or RFI suppression NOT switching 150W loads from Triacs or Offline diode pulse regulators that draw 10x peak/avg current for 10% ripple.
      $endgroup$
      – Sunnyskyguy EE75
      6 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Obviously the parts cannot tolerate this application and are all damaged. Self healing is only for random lightning events not absorbing 1~2A pulses every cycle.
      $endgroup$
      – Sunnyskyguy EE75
      5 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      Even a higher voltage rated cap is not enough here, since the issue is the maximum current the cap can handle (in the order of 1A). You need a cap that can deal with such current without damage.
      $endgroup$
      – xryl669
      5 hours ago















    9












    $begingroup$

    The film capacitors are made to be "self healing" which just means that when they develop a short due to abuse the area around the short gets blown away, reducing the capacitance.



    It appears your application has frequent transients either from within or without that exceed the design capability of the capacitors. You can try to track them down at the source, attempt to shunt them with something like a bipolar TVS across the caps, or buy better (higher voltage rated) capacitors.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Or X1 if they will fit.
      $endgroup$
      – Robert Endl
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Are you sure these caps are rated for Pulse charging/discharging applications? I think it is for RF coupling or RFI suppression NOT switching 150W loads from Triacs or Offline diode pulse regulators that draw 10x peak/avg current for 10% ripple.
      $endgroup$
      – Sunnyskyguy EE75
      6 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Obviously the parts cannot tolerate this application and are all damaged. Self healing is only for random lightning events not absorbing 1~2A pulses every cycle.
      $endgroup$
      – Sunnyskyguy EE75
      5 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      Even a higher voltage rated cap is not enough here, since the issue is the maximum current the cap can handle (in the order of 1A). You need a cap that can deal with such current without damage.
      $endgroup$
      – xryl669
      5 hours ago













    9












    9








    9





    $begingroup$

    The film capacitors are made to be "self healing" which just means that when they develop a short due to abuse the area around the short gets blown away, reducing the capacitance.



    It appears your application has frequent transients either from within or without that exceed the design capability of the capacitors. You can try to track them down at the source, attempt to shunt them with something like a bipolar TVS across the caps, or buy better (higher voltage rated) capacitors.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    The film capacitors are made to be "self healing" which just means that when they develop a short due to abuse the area around the short gets blown away, reducing the capacitance.



    It appears your application has frequent transients either from within or without that exceed the design capability of the capacitors. You can try to track them down at the source, attempt to shunt them with something like a bipolar TVS across the caps, or buy better (higher voltage rated) capacitors.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 8 hours ago









    Spehro PefhanySpehro Pefhany

    212k5162428




    212k5162428











    • $begingroup$
      Or X1 if they will fit.
      $endgroup$
      – Robert Endl
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Are you sure these caps are rated for Pulse charging/discharging applications? I think it is for RF coupling or RFI suppression NOT switching 150W loads from Triacs or Offline diode pulse regulators that draw 10x peak/avg current for 10% ripple.
      $endgroup$
      – Sunnyskyguy EE75
      6 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Obviously the parts cannot tolerate this application and are all damaged. Self healing is only for random lightning events not absorbing 1~2A pulses every cycle.
      $endgroup$
      – Sunnyskyguy EE75
      5 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      Even a higher voltage rated cap is not enough here, since the issue is the maximum current the cap can handle (in the order of 1A). You need a cap that can deal with such current without damage.
      $endgroup$
      – xryl669
      5 hours ago
















    • $begingroup$
      Or X1 if they will fit.
      $endgroup$
      – Robert Endl
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Are you sure these caps are rated for Pulse charging/discharging applications? I think it is for RF coupling or RFI suppression NOT switching 150W loads from Triacs or Offline diode pulse regulators that draw 10x peak/avg current for 10% ripple.
      $endgroup$
      – Sunnyskyguy EE75
      6 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Obviously the parts cannot tolerate this application and are all damaged. Self healing is only for random lightning events not absorbing 1~2A pulses every cycle.
      $endgroup$
      – Sunnyskyguy EE75
      5 hours ago











    • $begingroup$
      Even a higher voltage rated cap is not enough here, since the issue is the maximum current the cap can handle (in the order of 1A). You need a cap that can deal with such current without damage.
      $endgroup$
      – xryl669
      5 hours ago















    $begingroup$
    Or X1 if they will fit.
    $endgroup$
    – Robert Endl
    6 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Or X1 if they will fit.
    $endgroup$
    – Robert Endl
    6 hours ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    Are you sure these caps are rated for Pulse charging/discharging applications? I think it is for RF coupling or RFI suppression NOT switching 150W loads from Triacs or Offline diode pulse regulators that draw 10x peak/avg current for 10% ripple.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    6 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Are you sure these caps are rated for Pulse charging/discharging applications? I think it is for RF coupling or RFI suppression NOT switching 150W loads from Triacs or Offline diode pulse regulators that draw 10x peak/avg current for 10% ripple.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    6 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    Obviously the parts cannot tolerate this application and are all damaged. Self healing is only for random lightning events not absorbing 1~2A pulses every cycle.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    5 hours ago





    $begingroup$
    Obviously the parts cannot tolerate this application and are all damaged. Self healing is only for random lightning events not absorbing 1~2A pulses every cycle.
    $endgroup$
    – Sunnyskyguy EE75
    5 hours ago













    $begingroup$
    Even a higher voltage rated cap is not enough here, since the issue is the maximum current the cap can handle (in the order of 1A). You need a cap that can deal with such current without damage.
    $endgroup$
    – xryl669
    5 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Even a higher voltage rated cap is not enough here, since the issue is the maximum current the cap can handle (in the order of 1A). You need a cap that can deal with such current without damage.
    $endgroup$
    – xryl669
    5 hours ago













    5












    $begingroup$

    These are Interference Suppression Capacitors and have excellent properties of flame retardance, self-healing, spark killers but these are NOT intended for continuous series pulse charging as they are used in this with a Triac in a dim Halogen surge load.



    Although they do not come out and say this in the datasheet, my experience from similar MEX-X2 caps tells me this from prior experience and backed up by Vishay-Roederstein similar MKP X2 datasheets.



    In the fine print TENTA specs indicate a MAXIMUM RISE TIME 250Vac:120V/microsecond. This implies the maximum current it can handle using Ic=CdV/dt with dV/dt rated at 120V/us max.



    So how is the pulse current in this design?
    C5 across Triac may see continuous current spikes of about 1 A when operating the bulb at 90 deg phase control on peak voltage.



    This will significantly reduce the life of the capacitor.



    For a 150W Tungsten lamp operating at 240Vrms 340Vp at 90 deg phase on Triac, the bulb draws about 100W and has cooled down to a dim 1200'K with R= 240 Ohms and C5 across Triac and 1.5mH inductor discharges the 350Vp cap voltage with the resistance of the Choke and triac



    Vishay Roederstein AC-Capacitors, Suppression Capacitors APPLICATION NOTES
    Class X2 AC 275 V (MKT)



    • For X2 electromagnetic interference suppression in across the line applications (50/60 Hz) with a maximum mains voltage of
    275 V (AC).
    • These capacitors are not intended for continuous pulse applications. For these situations, capacitors of the AC and pulse
    programs must be used
    .



    These capacitors are not intended for series impedance application. For these situations in case safety approvals are requested, please refer to our special capacitors of 1772 series with internal series connection.




    The F1772 datasheets are not much better.



    These capacitors are not intended for continuous pulse applications. For these situations, capacitors of the AC and pulse
    programs must be used.
    • These capacitors can be used for series impedance application in case safety approvals are requested.
    The F1772 series caps also give warnings



    In my experience if a datasheet does not include 1 of the following { ESR specs, or rated ripple current rms, then it is not intended for high pulse , low ESR operation. For example motor Start/Run Caps never include any of the above and are know to have poorer ESR characteristics since they operate in circuits with higher resistance unlike SMPS or AC diode/Triac offline switch caps.



    Conclusion



    • Unreliable power dim design from high stress topology and selection of marginally unacceptable caps.


    • I could suggest a better AC-DC supply.



      enter image description here







    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$

















      5












      $begingroup$

      These are Interference Suppression Capacitors and have excellent properties of flame retardance, self-healing, spark killers but these are NOT intended for continuous series pulse charging as they are used in this with a Triac in a dim Halogen surge load.



      Although they do not come out and say this in the datasheet, my experience from similar MEX-X2 caps tells me this from prior experience and backed up by Vishay-Roederstein similar MKP X2 datasheets.



      In the fine print TENTA specs indicate a MAXIMUM RISE TIME 250Vac:120V/microsecond. This implies the maximum current it can handle using Ic=CdV/dt with dV/dt rated at 120V/us max.



      So how is the pulse current in this design?
      C5 across Triac may see continuous current spikes of about 1 A when operating the bulb at 90 deg phase control on peak voltage.



      This will significantly reduce the life of the capacitor.



      For a 150W Tungsten lamp operating at 240Vrms 340Vp at 90 deg phase on Triac, the bulb draws about 100W and has cooled down to a dim 1200'K with R= 240 Ohms and C5 across Triac and 1.5mH inductor discharges the 350Vp cap voltage with the resistance of the Choke and triac



      Vishay Roederstein AC-Capacitors, Suppression Capacitors APPLICATION NOTES
      Class X2 AC 275 V (MKT)



      • For X2 electromagnetic interference suppression in across the line applications (50/60 Hz) with a maximum mains voltage of
      275 V (AC).
      • These capacitors are not intended for continuous pulse applications. For these situations, capacitors of the AC and pulse
      programs must be used
      .



      These capacitors are not intended for series impedance application. For these situations in case safety approvals are requested, please refer to our special capacitors of 1772 series with internal series connection.




      The F1772 datasheets are not much better.



      These capacitors are not intended for continuous pulse applications. For these situations, capacitors of the AC and pulse
      programs must be used.
      • These capacitors can be used for series impedance application in case safety approvals are requested.
      The F1772 series caps also give warnings



      In my experience if a datasheet does not include 1 of the following { ESR specs, or rated ripple current rms, then it is not intended for high pulse , low ESR operation. For example motor Start/Run Caps never include any of the above and are know to have poorer ESR characteristics since they operate in circuits with higher resistance unlike SMPS or AC diode/Triac offline switch caps.



      Conclusion



      • Unreliable power dim design from high stress topology and selection of marginally unacceptable caps.


      • I could suggest a better AC-DC supply.



        enter image description here







      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$















        5












        5








        5





        $begingroup$

        These are Interference Suppression Capacitors and have excellent properties of flame retardance, self-healing, spark killers but these are NOT intended for continuous series pulse charging as they are used in this with a Triac in a dim Halogen surge load.



        Although they do not come out and say this in the datasheet, my experience from similar MEX-X2 caps tells me this from prior experience and backed up by Vishay-Roederstein similar MKP X2 datasheets.



        In the fine print TENTA specs indicate a MAXIMUM RISE TIME 250Vac:120V/microsecond. This implies the maximum current it can handle using Ic=CdV/dt with dV/dt rated at 120V/us max.



        So how is the pulse current in this design?
        C5 across Triac may see continuous current spikes of about 1 A when operating the bulb at 90 deg phase control on peak voltage.



        This will significantly reduce the life of the capacitor.



        For a 150W Tungsten lamp operating at 240Vrms 340Vp at 90 deg phase on Triac, the bulb draws about 100W and has cooled down to a dim 1200'K with R= 240 Ohms and C5 across Triac and 1.5mH inductor discharges the 350Vp cap voltage with the resistance of the Choke and triac



        Vishay Roederstein AC-Capacitors, Suppression Capacitors APPLICATION NOTES
        Class X2 AC 275 V (MKT)



        • For X2 electromagnetic interference suppression in across the line applications (50/60 Hz) with a maximum mains voltage of
        275 V (AC).
        • These capacitors are not intended for continuous pulse applications. For these situations, capacitors of the AC and pulse
        programs must be used
        .



        These capacitors are not intended for series impedance application. For these situations in case safety approvals are requested, please refer to our special capacitors of 1772 series with internal series connection.




        The F1772 datasheets are not much better.



        These capacitors are not intended for continuous pulse applications. For these situations, capacitors of the AC and pulse
        programs must be used.
        • These capacitors can be used for series impedance application in case safety approvals are requested.
        The F1772 series caps also give warnings



        In my experience if a datasheet does not include 1 of the following { ESR specs, or rated ripple current rms, then it is not intended for high pulse , low ESR operation. For example motor Start/Run Caps never include any of the above and are know to have poorer ESR characteristics since they operate in circuits with higher resistance unlike SMPS or AC diode/Triac offline switch caps.



        Conclusion



        • Unreliable power dim design from high stress topology and selection of marginally unacceptable caps.


        • I could suggest a better AC-DC supply.



          enter image description here







        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        These are Interference Suppression Capacitors and have excellent properties of flame retardance, self-healing, spark killers but these are NOT intended for continuous series pulse charging as they are used in this with a Triac in a dim Halogen surge load.



        Although they do not come out and say this in the datasheet, my experience from similar MEX-X2 caps tells me this from prior experience and backed up by Vishay-Roederstein similar MKP X2 datasheets.



        In the fine print TENTA specs indicate a MAXIMUM RISE TIME 250Vac:120V/microsecond. This implies the maximum current it can handle using Ic=CdV/dt with dV/dt rated at 120V/us max.



        So how is the pulse current in this design?
        C5 across Triac may see continuous current spikes of about 1 A when operating the bulb at 90 deg phase control on peak voltage.



        This will significantly reduce the life of the capacitor.



        For a 150W Tungsten lamp operating at 240Vrms 340Vp at 90 deg phase on Triac, the bulb draws about 100W and has cooled down to a dim 1200'K with R= 240 Ohms and C5 across Triac and 1.5mH inductor discharges the 350Vp cap voltage with the resistance of the Choke and triac



        Vishay Roederstein AC-Capacitors, Suppression Capacitors APPLICATION NOTES
        Class X2 AC 275 V (MKT)



        • For X2 electromagnetic interference suppression in across the line applications (50/60 Hz) with a maximum mains voltage of
        275 V (AC).
        • These capacitors are not intended for continuous pulse applications. For these situations, capacitors of the AC and pulse
        programs must be used
        .



        These capacitors are not intended for series impedance application. For these situations in case safety approvals are requested, please refer to our special capacitors of 1772 series with internal series connection.




        The F1772 datasheets are not much better.



        These capacitors are not intended for continuous pulse applications. For these situations, capacitors of the AC and pulse
        programs must be used.
        • These capacitors can be used for series impedance application in case safety approvals are requested.
        The F1772 series caps also give warnings



        In my experience if a datasheet does not include 1 of the following { ESR specs, or rated ripple current rms, then it is not intended for high pulse , low ESR operation. For example motor Start/Run Caps never include any of the above and are know to have poorer ESR characteristics since they operate in circuits with higher resistance unlike SMPS or AC diode/Triac offline switch caps.



        Conclusion



        • Unreliable power dim design from high stress topology and selection of marginally unacceptable caps.


        • I could suggest a better AC-DC supply.



          enter image description here








        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 5 hours ago

























        answered 5 hours ago









        Sunnyskyguy EE75Sunnyskyguy EE75

        70.2k225101




        70.2k225101



























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