Would Slavery Reparations be considered Bills of Attainder and hence Illegal?Is it illegal for a President or the Executive Branch to increase Congressional pay/benefits?How do Americans perceive slavery?Is Africa the only continent where chattel slavery still exists?How did slavery become a legal institution in the United States?In the US, is there any crime for which the punishment is slavery?What would make a Democratic Libertarian and a Republican Libertarian different?Are the first ladies considered politicians?Why would Congress want to censure Trump and what would that mean exactly for AmericaIn the news, it says “essential” government employees would be required to work without pay. How?In what ways economy influence slavery and end of it?
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Would Slavery Reparations be considered Bills of Attainder and hence Illegal?
Is it illegal for a President or the Executive Branch to increase Congressional pay/benefits?How do Americans perceive slavery?Is Africa the only continent where chattel slavery still exists?How did slavery become a legal institution in the United States?In the US, is there any crime for which the punishment is slavery?What would make a Democratic Libertarian and a Republican Libertarian different?Are the first ladies considered politicians?Why would Congress want to censure Trump and what would that mean exactly for AmericaIn the news, it says “essential” government employees would be required to work without pay. How?In what ways economy influence slavery and end of it?
Recently, a few aspiring 2020 Democratic Presidential candidates (specifically Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren) have spoken out in favor of "reparations" to black people for American Slavery, which was abolished over 150 years ago.
Mirriam Dictionary defines a "Bill of Attainder" as:
a legislative act that imposes punishment without a trial
Bills of Attainder are specifically prohibited by the US Constitution in Article 1, Section 9.
Of course, the idea behind banning Bills of Attainder was to prevent abuse whereby legislatures would target groups of people and pass laws summarily punishing them for perceived actions or transgressions.
Would any Bill establishing "slavery reparations" not have to be considered an illegal Bill of Attainder since they specifically target non-black people and slate them for punishment without a trial?
president democratic-party slavery democratic-primary reparations
add a comment |
Recently, a few aspiring 2020 Democratic Presidential candidates (specifically Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren) have spoken out in favor of "reparations" to black people for American Slavery, which was abolished over 150 years ago.
Mirriam Dictionary defines a "Bill of Attainder" as:
a legislative act that imposes punishment without a trial
Bills of Attainder are specifically prohibited by the US Constitution in Article 1, Section 9.
Of course, the idea behind banning Bills of Attainder was to prevent abuse whereby legislatures would target groups of people and pass laws summarily punishing them for perceived actions or transgressions.
Would any Bill establishing "slavery reparations" not have to be considered an illegal Bill of Attainder since they specifically target non-black people and slate them for punishment without a trial?
president democratic-party slavery democratic-primary reparations
add a comment |
Recently, a few aspiring 2020 Democratic Presidential candidates (specifically Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren) have spoken out in favor of "reparations" to black people for American Slavery, which was abolished over 150 years ago.
Mirriam Dictionary defines a "Bill of Attainder" as:
a legislative act that imposes punishment without a trial
Bills of Attainder are specifically prohibited by the US Constitution in Article 1, Section 9.
Of course, the idea behind banning Bills of Attainder was to prevent abuse whereby legislatures would target groups of people and pass laws summarily punishing them for perceived actions or transgressions.
Would any Bill establishing "slavery reparations" not have to be considered an illegal Bill of Attainder since they specifically target non-black people and slate them for punishment without a trial?
president democratic-party slavery democratic-primary reparations
Recently, a few aspiring 2020 Democratic Presidential candidates (specifically Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren) have spoken out in favor of "reparations" to black people for American Slavery, which was abolished over 150 years ago.
Mirriam Dictionary defines a "Bill of Attainder" as:
a legislative act that imposes punishment without a trial
Bills of Attainder are specifically prohibited by the US Constitution in Article 1, Section 9.
Of course, the idea behind banning Bills of Attainder was to prevent abuse whereby legislatures would target groups of people and pass laws summarily punishing them for perceived actions or transgressions.
Would any Bill establishing "slavery reparations" not have to be considered an illegal Bill of Attainder since they specifically target non-black people and slate them for punishment without a trial?
president democratic-party slavery democratic-primary reparations
president democratic-party slavery democratic-primary reparations
asked 7 hours ago
AgustusAgustus
1136
1136
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
No, on two counts
First, if they were funded by reorganization of current government spending, reparations would legally be no different from any other government program that targets a group.
This was established in Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, that a law burdening a group is not unconstitutional.
However expansive is the prohibition against bills of attainder, it was not intended to serve as a variant of the Equal Protection Clause, invalidating every Act by Congress or the States that burdens some persons or groups but not all other plausible individuals.
There's a little bit more about how intent to punish and legitimate purposes also matter.
Further, even were they funded by a specific additional tax, reparations would legally be considered a tax, not a punishment. Note that everyone would likely be taxed, but, as with many existing government programs, the proceeds would not be distributed back to everyone evenly.
Finally, reparations have been implemented by law previously in US history, for instance in the case of the internment of Japanese-Americans. To the best of my knowledge, there was no challenge on constitutional grounds, and if there was, it clearly was not successful.
add a comment |
It depends how they do it. Some legal (although there may be other challenges for these) ways:
- Pass a law saying that descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners. Then hold a trial or trials. Would have to be carefully worded to not be ex post facto banned.
- Raise a general tax and make a specific payment. So all races would pay a tax but only descendants of slaves would get money back.
- Raise a general tax (possibly progressive) and make a means-tested payment. So all races would pay tax and all races would receive payments. But richer whites would pay more tax and poorer blacks would receive more payments.
The bill of attainder ban only prevents an explicit transfer of money from one group to the government without a trial. It doesn't prevent implicit transfers; otherwise, welfare payments would trigger it.
4
The defense I would use against such a lawsuit is not ex post facto, but corruption of blood.
– Joshua
5 hours ago
@Joshua: Could that be avoided by the lawsuit being against the estate rather than against the living descendant? Is it possible to have a judgement against the estate of someone whose wealth was inherited long ago, possibly separated by more than one generation of inheritance, resulting in a debt for some living person?
– R..
4 hours ago
@R..: Which will, conveniently, limit the recoverable value to the value of the estate at its smallest inheritance.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
1
This would be interesting in implementation (looking at it as a non-American). Since slavery ended 150 years ago, there is no telling the financial status of the descendants of former slave-owners today. It is exceptionally easy to completely annihilate vast magnitudes of wealth exceedingly quickly; one need only look at the financial status of lottery winners to see examples, and I doubt most former slave owners would have had even that kind of wealth. If a system were to be enacted whereby descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners, how would such a payment be calculated?
– Ertai87
3 hours ago
3
I don't think the lawsuit idea is a very common proposal. Unlike taxes, it would encounter legal issues, as well as more practical issues. For instance, lawsuits against estates are barred after more than one year. Such a proposal would only make sense if the idea actually were what the querent assumes, to punish the descendents of former slave-holders, which isn't the case. More typical reasoning has to do with compensation or reduction of the racial wealth disparity.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
- Since no reparations proposal requires anyone to be disenfranchised,
whipped, branded, imprisoned, or executed... it's not clear in what
sense, (if any), "punishment" might be construed as occurring in
the event of reparations. If one of the premises of this question is
the exotic notion that all taxation is "punishment", this should
be clearly stated in the question. If not, then there's no
punishment, and the question is moot. - Since there's absolutely no question of the fact of slavery, or so much of its
unhappy aftermath, a trial for slavery would seem as pointless as
having a trial to decide whether or not some disastrous tornado or
hurricane had occurred.
Combining the previous two points, this question is like asking whether federal assistance for victims of California's wildfires violates the prohibition against Bills of Attainder because rendering such assistance would unconstitutionally "punish" the innocent citizens of Hawaii and Louisiana.
While point 1 certainly is true, the argument would be that a disparate tax might effectively constitute a fine, which can be a (mild) form of punishment. I don't think this is correct, because intent is important, as is the presence of a legitimate political purpose, but that would be the argument.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
@Obie2.0, I had appreciated that implied imputation, but it yet remains unclear as to the logical validity of the overall notion in the mind of the question's author. Fines are for reducing the frequency of certain minor crimes of negligence, but slavery was no careless misdemeanor.
– agc
3 hours ago
It's not too relevant to this discussion, but as you probably know fines can also be imposed for more serious crimes than misdemeanors, along with other punishments. For instance federal law provides for fines as a punishment for murder of a US national outside the US, along with imprisonment and execution.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
Though I guess it's slightly relevant because an actual fine probably would run afoul of the bill of attainder provision, however small it might be. Unless it were something like the penalty from the Affordable Care Act, that's within the government's civil scope. For instance I don't see a bill saying "Anyone who lives in New York will be fined for murder" passing that test. But "anyone living in New York will be taxed and the taxes used to reduce murder rates" certainly would.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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oldest
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3 Answers
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oldest
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No, on two counts
First, if they were funded by reorganization of current government spending, reparations would legally be no different from any other government program that targets a group.
This was established in Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, that a law burdening a group is not unconstitutional.
However expansive is the prohibition against bills of attainder, it was not intended to serve as a variant of the Equal Protection Clause, invalidating every Act by Congress or the States that burdens some persons or groups but not all other plausible individuals.
There's a little bit more about how intent to punish and legitimate purposes also matter.
Further, even were they funded by a specific additional tax, reparations would legally be considered a tax, not a punishment. Note that everyone would likely be taxed, but, as with many existing government programs, the proceeds would not be distributed back to everyone evenly.
Finally, reparations have been implemented by law previously in US history, for instance in the case of the internment of Japanese-Americans. To the best of my knowledge, there was no challenge on constitutional grounds, and if there was, it clearly was not successful.
add a comment |
No, on two counts
First, if they were funded by reorganization of current government spending, reparations would legally be no different from any other government program that targets a group.
This was established in Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, that a law burdening a group is not unconstitutional.
However expansive is the prohibition against bills of attainder, it was not intended to serve as a variant of the Equal Protection Clause, invalidating every Act by Congress or the States that burdens some persons or groups but not all other plausible individuals.
There's a little bit more about how intent to punish and legitimate purposes also matter.
Further, even were they funded by a specific additional tax, reparations would legally be considered a tax, not a punishment. Note that everyone would likely be taxed, but, as with many existing government programs, the proceeds would not be distributed back to everyone evenly.
Finally, reparations have been implemented by law previously in US history, for instance in the case of the internment of Japanese-Americans. To the best of my knowledge, there was no challenge on constitutional grounds, and if there was, it clearly was not successful.
add a comment |
No, on two counts
First, if they were funded by reorganization of current government spending, reparations would legally be no different from any other government program that targets a group.
This was established in Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, that a law burdening a group is not unconstitutional.
However expansive is the prohibition against bills of attainder, it was not intended to serve as a variant of the Equal Protection Clause, invalidating every Act by Congress or the States that burdens some persons or groups but not all other plausible individuals.
There's a little bit more about how intent to punish and legitimate purposes also matter.
Further, even were they funded by a specific additional tax, reparations would legally be considered a tax, not a punishment. Note that everyone would likely be taxed, but, as with many existing government programs, the proceeds would not be distributed back to everyone evenly.
Finally, reparations have been implemented by law previously in US history, for instance in the case of the internment of Japanese-Americans. To the best of my knowledge, there was no challenge on constitutional grounds, and if there was, it clearly was not successful.
No, on two counts
First, if they were funded by reorganization of current government spending, reparations would legally be no different from any other government program that targets a group.
This was established in Nixon v. Administrator of General Services, that a law burdening a group is not unconstitutional.
However expansive is the prohibition against bills of attainder, it was not intended to serve as a variant of the Equal Protection Clause, invalidating every Act by Congress or the States that burdens some persons or groups but not all other plausible individuals.
There's a little bit more about how intent to punish and legitimate purposes also matter.
Further, even were they funded by a specific additional tax, reparations would legally be considered a tax, not a punishment. Note that everyone would likely be taxed, but, as with many existing government programs, the proceeds would not be distributed back to everyone evenly.
Finally, reparations have been implemented by law previously in US history, for instance in the case of the internment of Japanese-Americans. To the best of my knowledge, there was no challenge on constitutional grounds, and if there was, it clearly was not successful.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
Obie 2.0Obie 2.0
2,167720
2,167720
add a comment |
add a comment |
It depends how they do it. Some legal (although there may be other challenges for these) ways:
- Pass a law saying that descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners. Then hold a trial or trials. Would have to be carefully worded to not be ex post facto banned.
- Raise a general tax and make a specific payment. So all races would pay a tax but only descendants of slaves would get money back.
- Raise a general tax (possibly progressive) and make a means-tested payment. So all races would pay tax and all races would receive payments. But richer whites would pay more tax and poorer blacks would receive more payments.
The bill of attainder ban only prevents an explicit transfer of money from one group to the government without a trial. It doesn't prevent implicit transfers; otherwise, welfare payments would trigger it.
4
The defense I would use against such a lawsuit is not ex post facto, but corruption of blood.
– Joshua
5 hours ago
@Joshua: Could that be avoided by the lawsuit being against the estate rather than against the living descendant? Is it possible to have a judgement against the estate of someone whose wealth was inherited long ago, possibly separated by more than one generation of inheritance, resulting in a debt for some living person?
– R..
4 hours ago
@R..: Which will, conveniently, limit the recoverable value to the value of the estate at its smallest inheritance.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
1
This would be interesting in implementation (looking at it as a non-American). Since slavery ended 150 years ago, there is no telling the financial status of the descendants of former slave-owners today. It is exceptionally easy to completely annihilate vast magnitudes of wealth exceedingly quickly; one need only look at the financial status of lottery winners to see examples, and I doubt most former slave owners would have had even that kind of wealth. If a system were to be enacted whereby descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners, how would such a payment be calculated?
– Ertai87
3 hours ago
3
I don't think the lawsuit idea is a very common proposal. Unlike taxes, it would encounter legal issues, as well as more practical issues. For instance, lawsuits against estates are barred after more than one year. Such a proposal would only make sense if the idea actually were what the querent assumes, to punish the descendents of former slave-holders, which isn't the case. More typical reasoning has to do with compensation or reduction of the racial wealth disparity.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
It depends how they do it. Some legal (although there may be other challenges for these) ways:
- Pass a law saying that descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners. Then hold a trial or trials. Would have to be carefully worded to not be ex post facto banned.
- Raise a general tax and make a specific payment. So all races would pay a tax but only descendants of slaves would get money back.
- Raise a general tax (possibly progressive) and make a means-tested payment. So all races would pay tax and all races would receive payments. But richer whites would pay more tax and poorer blacks would receive more payments.
The bill of attainder ban only prevents an explicit transfer of money from one group to the government without a trial. It doesn't prevent implicit transfers; otherwise, welfare payments would trigger it.
4
The defense I would use against such a lawsuit is not ex post facto, but corruption of blood.
– Joshua
5 hours ago
@Joshua: Could that be avoided by the lawsuit being against the estate rather than against the living descendant? Is it possible to have a judgement against the estate of someone whose wealth was inherited long ago, possibly separated by more than one generation of inheritance, resulting in a debt for some living person?
– R..
4 hours ago
@R..: Which will, conveniently, limit the recoverable value to the value of the estate at its smallest inheritance.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
1
This would be interesting in implementation (looking at it as a non-American). Since slavery ended 150 years ago, there is no telling the financial status of the descendants of former slave-owners today. It is exceptionally easy to completely annihilate vast magnitudes of wealth exceedingly quickly; one need only look at the financial status of lottery winners to see examples, and I doubt most former slave owners would have had even that kind of wealth. If a system were to be enacted whereby descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners, how would such a payment be calculated?
– Ertai87
3 hours ago
3
I don't think the lawsuit idea is a very common proposal. Unlike taxes, it would encounter legal issues, as well as more practical issues. For instance, lawsuits against estates are barred after more than one year. Such a proposal would only make sense if the idea actually were what the querent assumes, to punish the descendents of former slave-holders, which isn't the case. More typical reasoning has to do with compensation or reduction of the racial wealth disparity.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
It depends how they do it. Some legal (although there may be other challenges for these) ways:
- Pass a law saying that descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners. Then hold a trial or trials. Would have to be carefully worded to not be ex post facto banned.
- Raise a general tax and make a specific payment. So all races would pay a tax but only descendants of slaves would get money back.
- Raise a general tax (possibly progressive) and make a means-tested payment. So all races would pay tax and all races would receive payments. But richer whites would pay more tax and poorer blacks would receive more payments.
The bill of attainder ban only prevents an explicit transfer of money from one group to the government without a trial. It doesn't prevent implicit transfers; otherwise, welfare payments would trigger it.
It depends how they do it. Some legal (although there may be other challenges for these) ways:
- Pass a law saying that descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners. Then hold a trial or trials. Would have to be carefully worded to not be ex post facto banned.
- Raise a general tax and make a specific payment. So all races would pay a tax but only descendants of slaves would get money back.
- Raise a general tax (possibly progressive) and make a means-tested payment. So all races would pay tax and all races would receive payments. But richer whites would pay more tax and poorer blacks would receive more payments.
The bill of attainder ban only prevents an explicit transfer of money from one group to the government without a trial. It doesn't prevent implicit transfers; otherwise, welfare payments would trigger it.
answered 6 hours ago
BrythanBrythan
70.1k8146237
70.1k8146237
4
The defense I would use against such a lawsuit is not ex post facto, but corruption of blood.
– Joshua
5 hours ago
@Joshua: Could that be avoided by the lawsuit being against the estate rather than against the living descendant? Is it possible to have a judgement against the estate of someone whose wealth was inherited long ago, possibly separated by more than one generation of inheritance, resulting in a debt for some living person?
– R..
4 hours ago
@R..: Which will, conveniently, limit the recoverable value to the value of the estate at its smallest inheritance.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
1
This would be interesting in implementation (looking at it as a non-American). Since slavery ended 150 years ago, there is no telling the financial status of the descendants of former slave-owners today. It is exceptionally easy to completely annihilate vast magnitudes of wealth exceedingly quickly; one need only look at the financial status of lottery winners to see examples, and I doubt most former slave owners would have had even that kind of wealth. If a system were to be enacted whereby descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners, how would such a payment be calculated?
– Ertai87
3 hours ago
3
I don't think the lawsuit idea is a very common proposal. Unlike taxes, it would encounter legal issues, as well as more practical issues. For instance, lawsuits against estates are barred after more than one year. Such a proposal would only make sense if the idea actually were what the querent assumes, to punish the descendents of former slave-holders, which isn't the case. More typical reasoning has to do with compensation or reduction of the racial wealth disparity.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
4
The defense I would use against such a lawsuit is not ex post facto, but corruption of blood.
– Joshua
5 hours ago
@Joshua: Could that be avoided by the lawsuit being against the estate rather than against the living descendant? Is it possible to have a judgement against the estate of someone whose wealth was inherited long ago, possibly separated by more than one generation of inheritance, resulting in a debt for some living person?
– R..
4 hours ago
@R..: Which will, conveniently, limit the recoverable value to the value of the estate at its smallest inheritance.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
1
This would be interesting in implementation (looking at it as a non-American). Since slavery ended 150 years ago, there is no telling the financial status of the descendants of former slave-owners today. It is exceptionally easy to completely annihilate vast magnitudes of wealth exceedingly quickly; one need only look at the financial status of lottery winners to see examples, and I doubt most former slave owners would have had even that kind of wealth. If a system were to be enacted whereby descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners, how would such a payment be calculated?
– Ertai87
3 hours ago
3
I don't think the lawsuit idea is a very common proposal. Unlike taxes, it would encounter legal issues, as well as more practical issues. For instance, lawsuits against estates are barred after more than one year. Such a proposal would only make sense if the idea actually were what the querent assumes, to punish the descendents of former slave-holders, which isn't the case. More typical reasoning has to do with compensation or reduction of the racial wealth disparity.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
4
4
The defense I would use against such a lawsuit is not ex post facto, but corruption of blood.
– Joshua
5 hours ago
The defense I would use against such a lawsuit is not ex post facto, but corruption of blood.
– Joshua
5 hours ago
@Joshua: Could that be avoided by the lawsuit being against the estate rather than against the living descendant? Is it possible to have a judgement against the estate of someone whose wealth was inherited long ago, possibly separated by more than one generation of inheritance, resulting in a debt for some living person?
– R..
4 hours ago
@Joshua: Could that be avoided by the lawsuit being against the estate rather than against the living descendant? Is it possible to have a judgement against the estate of someone whose wealth was inherited long ago, possibly separated by more than one generation of inheritance, resulting in a debt for some living person?
– R..
4 hours ago
@R..: Which will, conveniently, limit the recoverable value to the value of the estate at its smallest inheritance.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
@R..: Which will, conveniently, limit the recoverable value to the value of the estate at its smallest inheritance.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
1
1
This would be interesting in implementation (looking at it as a non-American). Since slavery ended 150 years ago, there is no telling the financial status of the descendants of former slave-owners today. It is exceptionally easy to completely annihilate vast magnitudes of wealth exceedingly quickly; one need only look at the financial status of lottery winners to see examples, and I doubt most former slave owners would have had even that kind of wealth. If a system were to be enacted whereby descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners, how would such a payment be calculated?
– Ertai87
3 hours ago
This would be interesting in implementation (looking at it as a non-American). Since slavery ended 150 years ago, there is no telling the financial status of the descendants of former slave-owners today. It is exceptionally easy to completely annihilate vast magnitudes of wealth exceedingly quickly; one need only look at the financial status of lottery winners to see examples, and I doubt most former slave owners would have had even that kind of wealth. If a system were to be enacted whereby descendants of slaves could sue descendants of slave owners, how would such a payment be calculated?
– Ertai87
3 hours ago
3
3
I don't think the lawsuit idea is a very common proposal. Unlike taxes, it would encounter legal issues, as well as more practical issues. For instance, lawsuits against estates are barred after more than one year. Such a proposal would only make sense if the idea actually were what the querent assumes, to punish the descendents of former slave-holders, which isn't the case. More typical reasoning has to do with compensation or reduction of the racial wealth disparity.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
I don't think the lawsuit idea is a very common proposal. Unlike taxes, it would encounter legal issues, as well as more practical issues. For instance, lawsuits against estates are barred after more than one year. Such a proposal would only make sense if the idea actually were what the querent assumes, to punish the descendents of former slave-holders, which isn't the case. More typical reasoning has to do with compensation or reduction of the racial wealth disparity.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
- Since no reparations proposal requires anyone to be disenfranchised,
whipped, branded, imprisoned, or executed... it's not clear in what
sense, (if any), "punishment" might be construed as occurring in
the event of reparations. If one of the premises of this question is
the exotic notion that all taxation is "punishment", this should
be clearly stated in the question. If not, then there's no
punishment, and the question is moot. - Since there's absolutely no question of the fact of slavery, or so much of its
unhappy aftermath, a trial for slavery would seem as pointless as
having a trial to decide whether or not some disastrous tornado or
hurricane had occurred.
Combining the previous two points, this question is like asking whether federal assistance for victims of California's wildfires violates the prohibition against Bills of Attainder because rendering such assistance would unconstitutionally "punish" the innocent citizens of Hawaii and Louisiana.
While point 1 certainly is true, the argument would be that a disparate tax might effectively constitute a fine, which can be a (mild) form of punishment. I don't think this is correct, because intent is important, as is the presence of a legitimate political purpose, but that would be the argument.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
@Obie2.0, I had appreciated that implied imputation, but it yet remains unclear as to the logical validity of the overall notion in the mind of the question's author. Fines are for reducing the frequency of certain minor crimes of negligence, but slavery was no careless misdemeanor.
– agc
3 hours ago
It's not too relevant to this discussion, but as you probably know fines can also be imposed for more serious crimes than misdemeanors, along with other punishments. For instance federal law provides for fines as a punishment for murder of a US national outside the US, along with imprisonment and execution.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
Though I guess it's slightly relevant because an actual fine probably would run afoul of the bill of attainder provision, however small it might be. Unless it were something like the penalty from the Affordable Care Act, that's within the government's civil scope. For instance I don't see a bill saying "Anyone who lives in New York will be fined for murder" passing that test. But "anyone living in New York will be taxed and the taxes used to reduce murder rates" certainly would.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
add a comment |
- Since no reparations proposal requires anyone to be disenfranchised,
whipped, branded, imprisoned, or executed... it's not clear in what
sense, (if any), "punishment" might be construed as occurring in
the event of reparations. If one of the premises of this question is
the exotic notion that all taxation is "punishment", this should
be clearly stated in the question. If not, then there's no
punishment, and the question is moot. - Since there's absolutely no question of the fact of slavery, or so much of its
unhappy aftermath, a trial for slavery would seem as pointless as
having a trial to decide whether or not some disastrous tornado or
hurricane had occurred.
Combining the previous two points, this question is like asking whether federal assistance for victims of California's wildfires violates the prohibition against Bills of Attainder because rendering such assistance would unconstitutionally "punish" the innocent citizens of Hawaii and Louisiana.
While point 1 certainly is true, the argument would be that a disparate tax might effectively constitute a fine, which can be a (mild) form of punishment. I don't think this is correct, because intent is important, as is the presence of a legitimate political purpose, but that would be the argument.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
@Obie2.0, I had appreciated that implied imputation, but it yet remains unclear as to the logical validity of the overall notion in the mind of the question's author. Fines are for reducing the frequency of certain minor crimes of negligence, but slavery was no careless misdemeanor.
– agc
3 hours ago
It's not too relevant to this discussion, but as you probably know fines can also be imposed for more serious crimes than misdemeanors, along with other punishments. For instance federal law provides for fines as a punishment for murder of a US national outside the US, along with imprisonment and execution.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
Though I guess it's slightly relevant because an actual fine probably would run afoul of the bill of attainder provision, however small it might be. Unless it were something like the penalty from the Affordable Care Act, that's within the government's civil scope. For instance I don't see a bill saying "Anyone who lives in New York will be fined for murder" passing that test. But "anyone living in New York will be taxed and the taxes used to reduce murder rates" certainly would.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
add a comment |
- Since no reparations proposal requires anyone to be disenfranchised,
whipped, branded, imprisoned, or executed... it's not clear in what
sense, (if any), "punishment" might be construed as occurring in
the event of reparations. If one of the premises of this question is
the exotic notion that all taxation is "punishment", this should
be clearly stated in the question. If not, then there's no
punishment, and the question is moot. - Since there's absolutely no question of the fact of slavery, or so much of its
unhappy aftermath, a trial for slavery would seem as pointless as
having a trial to decide whether or not some disastrous tornado or
hurricane had occurred.
Combining the previous two points, this question is like asking whether federal assistance for victims of California's wildfires violates the prohibition against Bills of Attainder because rendering such assistance would unconstitutionally "punish" the innocent citizens of Hawaii and Louisiana.
- Since no reparations proposal requires anyone to be disenfranchised,
whipped, branded, imprisoned, or executed... it's not clear in what
sense, (if any), "punishment" might be construed as occurring in
the event of reparations. If one of the premises of this question is
the exotic notion that all taxation is "punishment", this should
be clearly stated in the question. If not, then there's no
punishment, and the question is moot. - Since there's absolutely no question of the fact of slavery, or so much of its
unhappy aftermath, a trial for slavery would seem as pointless as
having a trial to decide whether or not some disastrous tornado or
hurricane had occurred.
Combining the previous two points, this question is like asking whether federal assistance for victims of California's wildfires violates the prohibition against Bills of Attainder because rendering such assistance would unconstitutionally "punish" the innocent citizens of Hawaii and Louisiana.
edited 3 hours ago
answered 3 hours ago
agcagc
5,7201652
5,7201652
While point 1 certainly is true, the argument would be that a disparate tax might effectively constitute a fine, which can be a (mild) form of punishment. I don't think this is correct, because intent is important, as is the presence of a legitimate political purpose, but that would be the argument.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
@Obie2.0, I had appreciated that implied imputation, but it yet remains unclear as to the logical validity of the overall notion in the mind of the question's author. Fines are for reducing the frequency of certain minor crimes of negligence, but slavery was no careless misdemeanor.
– agc
3 hours ago
It's not too relevant to this discussion, but as you probably know fines can also be imposed for more serious crimes than misdemeanors, along with other punishments. For instance federal law provides for fines as a punishment for murder of a US national outside the US, along with imprisonment and execution.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
Though I guess it's slightly relevant because an actual fine probably would run afoul of the bill of attainder provision, however small it might be. Unless it were something like the penalty from the Affordable Care Act, that's within the government's civil scope. For instance I don't see a bill saying "Anyone who lives in New York will be fined for murder" passing that test. But "anyone living in New York will be taxed and the taxes used to reduce murder rates" certainly would.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
add a comment |
While point 1 certainly is true, the argument would be that a disparate tax might effectively constitute a fine, which can be a (mild) form of punishment. I don't think this is correct, because intent is important, as is the presence of a legitimate political purpose, but that would be the argument.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
@Obie2.0, I had appreciated that implied imputation, but it yet remains unclear as to the logical validity of the overall notion in the mind of the question's author. Fines are for reducing the frequency of certain minor crimes of negligence, but slavery was no careless misdemeanor.
– agc
3 hours ago
It's not too relevant to this discussion, but as you probably know fines can also be imposed for more serious crimes than misdemeanors, along with other punishments. For instance federal law provides for fines as a punishment for murder of a US national outside the US, along with imprisonment and execution.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
Though I guess it's slightly relevant because an actual fine probably would run afoul of the bill of attainder provision, however small it might be. Unless it were something like the penalty from the Affordable Care Act, that's within the government's civil scope. For instance I don't see a bill saying "Anyone who lives in New York will be fined for murder" passing that test. But "anyone living in New York will be taxed and the taxes used to reduce murder rates" certainly would.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
While point 1 certainly is true, the argument would be that a disparate tax might effectively constitute a fine, which can be a (mild) form of punishment. I don't think this is correct, because intent is important, as is the presence of a legitimate political purpose, but that would be the argument.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
While point 1 certainly is true, the argument would be that a disparate tax might effectively constitute a fine, which can be a (mild) form of punishment. I don't think this is correct, because intent is important, as is the presence of a legitimate political purpose, but that would be the argument.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
@Obie2.0, I had appreciated that implied imputation, but it yet remains unclear as to the logical validity of the overall notion in the mind of the question's author. Fines are for reducing the frequency of certain minor crimes of negligence, but slavery was no careless misdemeanor.
– agc
3 hours ago
@Obie2.0, I had appreciated that implied imputation, but it yet remains unclear as to the logical validity of the overall notion in the mind of the question's author. Fines are for reducing the frequency of certain minor crimes of negligence, but slavery was no careless misdemeanor.
– agc
3 hours ago
It's not too relevant to this discussion, but as you probably know fines can also be imposed for more serious crimes than misdemeanors, along with other punishments. For instance federal law provides for fines as a punishment for murder of a US national outside the US, along with imprisonment and execution.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
It's not too relevant to this discussion, but as you probably know fines can also be imposed for more serious crimes than misdemeanors, along with other punishments. For instance federal law provides for fines as a punishment for murder of a US national outside the US, along with imprisonment and execution.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
Though I guess it's slightly relevant because an actual fine probably would run afoul of the bill of attainder provision, however small it might be. Unless it were something like the penalty from the Affordable Care Act, that's within the government's civil scope. For instance I don't see a bill saying "Anyone who lives in New York will be fined for murder" passing that test. But "anyone living in New York will be taxed and the taxes used to reduce murder rates" certainly would.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
Though I guess it's slightly relevant because an actual fine probably would run afoul of the bill of attainder provision, however small it might be. Unless it were something like the penalty from the Affordable Care Act, that's within the government's civil scope. For instance I don't see a bill saying "Anyone who lives in New York will be fined for murder" passing that test. But "anyone living in New York will be taxed and the taxes used to reduce murder rates" certainly would.
– Obie 2.0
3 hours ago
add a comment |
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