Is it acceptable for a professor to tell male students to not think that they are smarter than female students?Should professors intervene if a student is wearing offensive clothing in their classroom?My professor gave me a bad grade and wouldn't discuss it further, I think some prejudice may be involved. How should a student proceed?How to address a professor that makes offensive comments (that they don't realize are offensive)?Research on relationship between how an instructor is addressed and students' evaluations of that instructor?Are there formal or informal hiring bans in some academic settings based on gender and/or nationality?What to remember when supervising female PhD students?How to handle sexist questions toward a faculty job candidate by other undergraduates?As a male student, did I say something wrong to this female professor?Is “Assistant Professor Position (Tenure Track) for a female Researcher” illegal in Austria?Upset by male classmates openly comparing female students according to physical appearance
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Is it acceptable for a professor to tell male students to not think that they are smarter than female students?
Should professors intervene if a student is wearing offensive clothing in their classroom?My professor gave me a bad grade and wouldn't discuss it further, I think some prejudice may be involved. How should a student proceed?How to address a professor that makes offensive comments (that they don't realize are offensive)?Research on relationship between how an instructor is addressed and students' evaluations of that instructor?Are there formal or informal hiring bans in some academic settings based on gender and/or nationality?What to remember when supervising female PhD students?How to handle sexist questions toward a faculty job candidate by other undergraduates?As a male student, did I say something wrong to this female professor?Is “Assistant Professor Position (Tenure Track) for a female Researcher” illegal in Austria?Upset by male classmates openly comparing female students according to physical appearance
The situation occured in the first lecture of an undergraduate course in a STEM field at an university.
The professor said that there are <20% female students in the class, while the usual quota is 40% (across fields and different academic degrees). The topic was brought up to "discuss microaggressions", such as letting female students do the easier tasks in group work. It should be noted that there is no selection of students for the field of study at the university (apart from a high-school diploma) and AFAIK there also is none for the course.
Then the male students were told to "not think they are smarter than their female neighbor", that "your female neigbor not asking questions does not mean that she is not following, maybe she is a lot smarter than you think" and that the professor is much better at the field than all of the male students (the last part was told with a smirk, not sure if it was a joke or a sign of satisfaction) and it was finished with a "GO GIRLS".
These main reasons why I find this offensive/disrespectful:
The students were viewed and adressed primarily through the lense of
group membership, and not as individuals.Replacing "male" with any other group makes the statements offensive or absurd.
While the instructions to not look down on/patronize female students
are correct, they are (in my view) indirect accusations of sexism.The contents of the talk, which took 5-10 minutes, were not related to the lecture and thus
were a waste of time for students. The issue might be important, but I was there to learn different contents.
Is my view justified? Is such behavior acceptable for a professor? Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
professors students gender
New contributor
B.Swan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
|
show 17 more comments
The situation occured in the first lecture of an undergraduate course in a STEM field at an university.
The professor said that there are <20% female students in the class, while the usual quota is 40% (across fields and different academic degrees). The topic was brought up to "discuss microaggressions", such as letting female students do the easier tasks in group work. It should be noted that there is no selection of students for the field of study at the university (apart from a high-school diploma) and AFAIK there also is none for the course.
Then the male students were told to "not think they are smarter than their female neighbor", that "your female neigbor not asking questions does not mean that she is not following, maybe she is a lot smarter than you think" and that the professor is much better at the field than all of the male students (the last part was told with a smirk, not sure if it was a joke or a sign of satisfaction) and it was finished with a "GO GIRLS".
These main reasons why I find this offensive/disrespectful:
The students were viewed and adressed primarily through the lense of
group membership, and not as individuals.Replacing "male" with any other group makes the statements offensive or absurd.
While the instructions to not look down on/patronize female students
are correct, they are (in my view) indirect accusations of sexism.The contents of the talk, which took 5-10 minutes, were not related to the lecture and thus
were a waste of time for students. The issue might be important, but I was there to learn different contents.
Is my view justified? Is such behavior acceptable for a professor? Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
professors students gender
New contributor
B.Swan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
34
...there is no selection of students for the field of study at the university... Not really. A great many things happen in the 17 or so years prior to entering university that influences choice of major. It's disingenuous to pretend that "innate interest" is the only factor.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
12
So why did you say this fact "should be noted"?
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
21
That closes the loop. Please reread my first comment.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
16
While the instructions to not look down on/patronize female students are correct, they are ... indirect accusations of sexism. Yes, exactly.
– Azor Ahai
5 hours ago
12
I don't really see a problem. It is a little prejudicial to single out the males for this (females can just as commonly think females are worse at STEM topics too). But we really would like more of them in STEM so whatever.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
|
show 17 more comments
The situation occured in the first lecture of an undergraduate course in a STEM field at an university.
The professor said that there are <20% female students in the class, while the usual quota is 40% (across fields and different academic degrees). The topic was brought up to "discuss microaggressions", such as letting female students do the easier tasks in group work. It should be noted that there is no selection of students for the field of study at the university (apart from a high-school diploma) and AFAIK there also is none for the course.
Then the male students were told to "not think they are smarter than their female neighbor", that "your female neigbor not asking questions does not mean that she is not following, maybe she is a lot smarter than you think" and that the professor is much better at the field than all of the male students (the last part was told with a smirk, not sure if it was a joke or a sign of satisfaction) and it was finished with a "GO GIRLS".
These main reasons why I find this offensive/disrespectful:
The students were viewed and adressed primarily through the lense of
group membership, and not as individuals.Replacing "male" with any other group makes the statements offensive or absurd.
While the instructions to not look down on/patronize female students
are correct, they are (in my view) indirect accusations of sexism.The contents of the talk, which took 5-10 minutes, were not related to the lecture and thus
were a waste of time for students. The issue might be important, but I was there to learn different contents.
Is my view justified? Is such behavior acceptable for a professor? Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
professors students gender
New contributor
B.Swan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
The situation occured in the first lecture of an undergraduate course in a STEM field at an university.
The professor said that there are <20% female students in the class, while the usual quota is 40% (across fields and different academic degrees). The topic was brought up to "discuss microaggressions", such as letting female students do the easier tasks in group work. It should be noted that there is no selection of students for the field of study at the university (apart from a high-school diploma) and AFAIK there also is none for the course.
Then the male students were told to "not think they are smarter than their female neighbor", that "your female neigbor not asking questions does not mean that she is not following, maybe she is a lot smarter than you think" and that the professor is much better at the field than all of the male students (the last part was told with a smirk, not sure if it was a joke or a sign of satisfaction) and it was finished with a "GO GIRLS".
These main reasons why I find this offensive/disrespectful:
The students were viewed and adressed primarily through the lense of
group membership, and not as individuals.Replacing "male" with any other group makes the statements offensive or absurd.
While the instructions to not look down on/patronize female students
are correct, they are (in my view) indirect accusations of sexism.The contents of the talk, which took 5-10 minutes, were not related to the lecture and thus
were a waste of time for students. The issue might be important, but I was there to learn different contents.
Is my view justified? Is such behavior acceptable for a professor? Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
professors students gender
professors students gender
New contributor
B.Swan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
B.Swan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 5 hours ago
B.Swan
New contributor
B.Swan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked 6 hours ago
B.SwanB.Swan
25537
25537
New contributor
B.Swan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor
B.Swan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
B.Swan is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
34
...there is no selection of students for the field of study at the university... Not really. A great many things happen in the 17 or so years prior to entering university that influences choice of major. It's disingenuous to pretend that "innate interest" is the only factor.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
12
So why did you say this fact "should be noted"?
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
21
That closes the loop. Please reread my first comment.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
16
While the instructions to not look down on/patronize female students are correct, they are ... indirect accusations of sexism. Yes, exactly.
– Azor Ahai
5 hours ago
12
I don't really see a problem. It is a little prejudicial to single out the males for this (females can just as commonly think females are worse at STEM topics too). But we really would like more of them in STEM so whatever.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
|
show 17 more comments
34
...there is no selection of students for the field of study at the university... Not really. A great many things happen in the 17 or so years prior to entering university that influences choice of major. It's disingenuous to pretend that "innate interest" is the only factor.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
12
So why did you say this fact "should be noted"?
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
21
That closes the loop. Please reread my first comment.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
16
While the instructions to not look down on/patronize female students are correct, they are ... indirect accusations of sexism. Yes, exactly.
– Azor Ahai
5 hours ago
12
I don't really see a problem. It is a little prejudicial to single out the males for this (females can just as commonly think females are worse at STEM topics too). But we really would like more of them in STEM so whatever.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
34
34
...there is no selection of students for the field of study at the university... Not really. A great many things happen in the 17 or so years prior to entering university that influences choice of major. It's disingenuous to pretend that "innate interest" is the only factor.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
...there is no selection of students for the field of study at the university... Not really. A great many things happen in the 17 or so years prior to entering university that influences choice of major. It's disingenuous to pretend that "innate interest" is the only factor.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
12
12
So why did you say this fact "should be noted"?
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
So why did you say this fact "should be noted"?
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
21
21
That closes the loop. Please reread my first comment.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
That closes the loop. Please reread my first comment.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
16
16
While the instructions to not look down on/patronize female students are correct, they are ... indirect accusations of sexism. Yes, exactly.
– Azor Ahai
5 hours ago
While the instructions to not look down on/patronize female students are correct, they are ... indirect accusations of sexism. Yes, exactly.
– Azor Ahai
5 hours ago
12
12
I don't really see a problem. It is a little prejudicial to single out the males for this (females can just as commonly think females are worse at STEM topics too). But we really would like more of them in STEM so whatever.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
I don't really see a problem. It is a little prejudicial to single out the males for this (females can just as commonly think females are worse at STEM topics too). But we really would like more of them in STEM so whatever.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
|
show 17 more comments
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
(edited this answer to consider some points raised in the comments and try to address OP more constructively)
Yes, it is acceptable for a professor to work to counter the effects of gender discrimination.
Yes, it is acceptable for a professor to warn a male-predominant class to not discriminate against women by giving them the "easy" tasks.
The professor is not accusing you as an individual of sexism, they are pointing out researched ways in which women are discriminated against, especially in STEM areas where women are under-represented.
Although your initial reaction was that this was a waste of time, I think you can use this experience and the feedback you get here as an opportunity to reflect - it seems from your comments that you are open to this.
I'd suggest you try the implicit bias test from Harvard, I was surprised by how much implicit bias it showed that I have. Some research has shown that people who take this sort of test are more introspective about their own biases afterwards. Even if you show little bias on that test, it may be instructive to see how much bias is seen in the population as a whole because people tend to underestimate bias experienced by other groups.
I don't think having implicit bias is something that reflects poorly on any individual, it's more of a product of society. What reflects on individuals is whether they try to become aware of the biases experienced by others and how their own implicit biases might influence their behavior.
I think your professor was trying to point out some of these biases to make students in the class more aware of them. It seems unlikely to me that any men in the course would literally think to themselves "Let's give the women the easy/secretarial tasks in group work!" (and if they do, they are probably never going to be convinced otherwise) - instead, they might accidentally do it by simply not thinking. By simply thinking about it more, and even by asking this question here, it seems to me like your professor was successful, even if you ultimately decide that you disagree with the approach.
Carter, A. J., Croft, A., Lukas, D., & Sandstrom, G. M. (2018). Women’s visibility in academic seminars: Women ask fewer questions than men. PloS one, 13(9), e0202743.
Cheryan, S., Ziegler, S. A., Montoya, A. K., & Jiang, L. (2017). Why are some STEM fields more gender balanced than others?. Psychological Bulletin, 143(1), 1.
Kaatz, A., Gutierrez, B., & Carnes, M. (2014). Threats to objectivity in peer review: the case of gender. Trends in pharmacological sciences, 35(8), 371-373.
Lerback, J., & Hanson, B. (2017). Journals invite too few women to referee. Nature News, 541(7638), 455.
Monteith, M. J., Ashburn-Nardo, L., Voils, C. I., & Czopp, A. M. (2002). Putting the brakes on prejudice: On the development and operation of cues for control. Journal of personality and social psychology, 83(5), 1029.
Swim, J. K., & Sanna, L. J. (1996). He's skilled, she's lucky: A meta-analysis of observers' attributions for women's and men's successes and failures. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 22(5), 507-519.
5
Thanks for your feedback, the reason I ask is because I am doubtful whether my "feelings" are justified, as of course I am biased in this issue due to my gender. Is the test not very controversial, as it often fails to reproduce results for the same person? I will work through your further reading.
– B.Swan
6 hours ago
7
@B.Swan The implicit bias test does yield reproducible results on the population level. It's not intended to be used as a quantification of an individual's bias, but it is instructive as a heuristic that demonstrates that nearly everyone has biases.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
3
@B.Swan I'd like to think I am strongly in favor of gender equality. I failed miserably on the test (i.e., it revealed a lot of implicit bias). I found that a bit eye opening, so I encourage others to check it out. Regardless of your results on the test, you should look at the population-level results, as ElizabethHenning suggests.
– Bryan Krause
6 hours ago
2
I like the reference list--I wasn't familiar with these. I posted links to a bunch of other references during an argument in a chat room here about whether men are given systematic advantages in STEM fields. I wonder if there shouldn't be a community-wiki or something where people can be pointed.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
5
That implicit bias test is terribly made though
– Run like hell
1 hour ago
|
show 14 more comments
Is my view justified?
It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender engage in sexist behaviors and need to be told not to engage in them any more. And yet, you yourself acknowledge that this assumption is likely correct. Her statement was of a general nature; she didn’t personally accuse you of anything, so personally I don’t see why you would feel offended.
You are perhaps justified in thinking the discussion was not the best use of the class time, but that would be your opinion, which may differ from other people’s opinion. Not all students have to agree all the time that what a professor is talking about at any given moment is the best thing for them to talk about. Some disagreement on such things is perfectly reasonable and probably unavoidable. But just the fact you think something was a waste of time does not imply that the professor is doing something wrong by talking about it.
Is such behavior acceptable for a professor?
Yes. The professor is doing their job of trying to achieve the best educational outcome for their class. Whether or not I agree that this topic was worth bringing up in class in the way they brought it up, there is nothing about it that qualifies as “unacceptable” behavior, such as harassment or discrimination, as far as I can tell.
Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
You are free to do so, but it’s not clear to me what you are hoping to achieve by doing that. I can’t advise you on whether you should or shouldn’t do it.
8
In fact, the students’ opinions about what is a good use of class time are largely irrelevant compared to the expertise of the professor regarding how to smoothly run a class. This speech is probably arising because of past experiences teaching this class and past behavior of the students.
– Dawn
5 hours ago
4
+1, but I think that it might be constructive for the OP to let the professor know in a non-accusatory way his experience of emotional discomfiture although he intellectually agrees with the motivation. It's possible that with some discussion there could be a positive resolution instead of coming away with the experience that his feelings don't matter.
– Elizabeth Henning
4 hours ago
6
"It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender...". Already you have a problem. He specifically complained at being categorized into a "flawed" gender that he should take responsibility for at all, rather than being treated as an individual who is just as likely or unlikely to misbehave as any other individual.
– A Simple Algorithm
4 hours ago
7
@llama that sounds like a textbook example of a prejudice.
– A Simple Algorithm
3 hours ago
4
@llama, I thought evidence generally points to sexism acting against women, from both men and women.
– Axeman
3 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
No, it’s not acceptable. Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women, and, moreover, the message that she was sending to the women in the class was essentially “Prepare to get discriminated against,” which isn’t a good message to send.
What should you do about it? Talking to her is unlikely to have an effect, because it is very difficult to convince people to alter their political ideologies, and she might have tenure so she might not have anything to fear from you making a complaint to the university.
Instead, just give her a poor rating in your feedback survey for the course, and leave a comment in the general feedback comment section explaining why. Universities use these surveys as a way of evaluating the performance of their instructors, so a poor review may well hit her where it hurts: in the wallet.
7
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that this answer is not going to get a lot of "likes" :-)
– Wolfgang Bangerth
1 hour ago
3
@WolfgangBangerth Sadly, now that this question is HNQ on StackOverflow, I predict that it will.
– Elizabeth Henning
1 hour ago
3
It actually has, at the time I’m making this comment; it just has nearly as many downvotes, as well. I knew it was going to be controversial when I posted it, but I figured it ought to be said.
– nick012000
1 hour ago
2
Just to make it clear, I do not want my professor to suffer any consequences, this is not my goal at all. I also do not want to change their mind, but I would like to give feedback.
– B.Swan
1 hour ago
4
Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women. I agree with that statement, but can you explain in what way the professor discriminated against men? Is she giving lower grades to male students or otherwise penalizing them based on their gender?
– Dan Romik
36 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
Is such behavior acceptable for a professor?
Yes. This the whole idea of academic freedom (as exemplified by tenure) -- professors should be able to work with uncomfortable issues without worrying about getting fired. I recognize that academic freedom would likely not protect them if they had made similar but politically-incorrect statements, but that's a separate issue.
Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
Depends on the professor. If they are a good professor, there might be an opportunity for discussion and perhaps you would both learn something. But sadly, many professors view this matter as sacrosanct, and will just write you off as a misogynist without allowing an open discussion. (In their defense, many students also broach the matter in a very hostile way..."you hate men" sounds very different than "Some of your comments made me uncomfortable.")
Is my view justified?
Doesn't matter. This is a well-studied, very controversial subject where tempers run hot and everyone thinks they are an expert. Studying such subjects has its place, but I'm assuming you are not currently an expert in gender relations. You're certainly entitled to tell the professor how their comments made you feel, but rather than getting into a debate with your professor, I would suggest you focus on learning STEM.
1
Great answer, especially the second part. You should definitely talk to the professor if you were really made uncomfortable, but don't be accusatory and instead open a dialogue. Also, as far as whether the view is justified, I agree with your answer, but I would also say that OP's feelings are in fact justified, and it may be worth exploring why they have them.
– AlexanderJ93
1 hour ago
@DanRomik -- the point is not "the professor has tenure, therefore it's OK." The point is that universities allow different views even in thorny, uncomfortable situations (tenure is a good example of how it strives to promote this). I personally don't really like this professor's approach of preemptively castigating people based on their identity. But for better or worse, it is "acceptable" -- if OP complains, the university will likely say that the professor was simply exercising this freedom to support her female students (not saying I agree with this).
– cag51
34 mins ago
@DanRomik - fine, done.
– cag51
11 mins ago
add a comment |
I don't really see this as some version of reverse discrimination or sexism against the men in the class, STEM fields have been dealing with a gender diversity issue for years now and efforts to curb this are only in their early stages. As someone who is currently pursuing an advanced degree in a STEM field, I tend to be optimistic and say the issues of sexism and discrimination in the sciences are (at least now) primarily implicit and unintentional, but that arguably makes this statement from your professor even more important. It may not have been intended to presume a discriminatory worldview, but instead to assuage any unconscious bias by trying to make students aware of these issues (which again, are salient in STEM fields right now).
I would also say the professor may have thought the warning more necessary given the proportions of the class. To quickly address your reasons point-by-point:
1. This does address group membership, but there's no way to treat it individually in this environment and it's still an important issue.
2. This is kind of true, but only because the fields have been male dominated in the past, which is what makes the statements necessary in the first place.
3. Could have been sexism, but I'd give the professor the benefit of the doubt and think of it more as just an attempt to encourage awareness of this potential issue.
4. This is a STEM class, therefore the diversity of the STEM fields are a pertinent topic, it may not have been a discussion of Newton's Laws, but that doesn't make it unrelated to the field. Plus, what's 5 or 10 minutes over a semester?
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1. The class as a whole could have been adressed, avoiding picking on any group particularly. 2. If the professor told Asian students to not think higher of themselves, it would be controversial, even though Asian people excell in STEM subjects. 3. See 1. 4. How do students of the class benefit from diversity information?
– B.Swan
29 mins ago
add a comment |
Unless your university is very far from the standard in the field, the offense you had to endure by feeling blanketly targetted because of your gender will be minuscule to the offense a female in a STEM career will have to endure not once but on a recurring basis.
I've been in engineering with about 3% of female students. Of those, the majority had a father in a STEM field and no male siblings providing an outlet for the father's role modeling that would have talked down their ambitions.
That's probably the situation from one generation before yours and society's clichés and images (the stuff feeding TV tropes) don't change all that fast and prejudices tend to double down before they move. I've seen my fair share of mansplaining in a number of disciplines including less male-dominated ones, and I've delivered my fair share of it as well: falling into the respective patterns is really easy.
You feel belittled by this advice. Would you also feel belittled by the suggestion to electricians to always keep one hand in the pocket when poking around live circuitry with a screw driver or probe? It is also an advice to behave in a manner minimising the results of stupidity that intelligent people should not be prone to in the first place.
I've brushed stuff in a TV set while pointing a grounded lamp with the other hand. I've seen a physics professor demonstrate the effectivity of a large Faraday cage from the inside while holding a wired microphone.
If you think yourself proof against stupid shit, it's probably because you haven't had enough opportunity to see yourself in the mirror.
Telling your offense to your professor will prime her to put your gender-related behavior under her scrutiny. You have nothing to gain from that.
Maybe wait out a year and keep your eyes and mind open. If you then still think that all-in-all her advice was unwarranted, reconsider telling her.
Yes, I think that certain suggestions are disrespectful. Would you feel offended if someone invited you to their home and instructed you to not steal anything? This is how I see it. I have been at the university for years and have worked with female group partners and there were no issues. I also had female tutors and 4 female professors, also no issues.
– B.Swan
47 mins ago
add a comment |
This sort of an approach is becoming increasingly popular as a way to fix the gender imbalance in academia. Gender discrimination is a problem that exists almost everywhere in society, including in academia. So, this is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. The professor cannot be criticized for addressing this issue in class, but one may question if this is going to be effective. If the professor is concerned about social dynamics among students affecting female students adversely, then that suggests that one should not organize group work where such effects can manifest itself and compromise academic results.
The bigger picture is that Western countries where efforts to curb gender discrimination have led to a lot of success when it comes to getting women in leading positions in industry, still perform quite poorly when it comes to curbing the gender imbalance in academia. If we look at other countries, we see that Iran outperforms most Western countries when it comes to getting women into academia. If we look at the former Soviet Union, we see that the participation of women in science there was an order of magnitude better than today in the West. Clearly these results cannot be explained from a model that assumes that gender discrimination is the most relevant factor.
I.m.o., the reason why today we have such a huge gender imbalance in science is because we've organized science within a capitalist framework. This has dragged down the entire scientific enterprise, there are far less women and men at work in science than there should be. Women are affected more than men by the way we've organized science, but all we notice is the difference between the participation of men and women, which is just the tip of the iceberg.
If society makes more room for science by making available more funds, then this will lead to more jobs in science. Scientists will have better job security, this will go a long way to get far more women (and also men) into science and keep them there. Women are then affected more by these issues because long term job security tends to be more important for women than for men in determining career choices. Also gender discrimination will have a far greater effect when job security issues are also at play.
add a comment |
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(edited this answer to consider some points raised in the comments and try to address OP more constructively)
Yes, it is acceptable for a professor to work to counter the effects of gender discrimination.
Yes, it is acceptable for a professor to warn a male-predominant class to not discriminate against women by giving them the "easy" tasks.
The professor is not accusing you as an individual of sexism, they are pointing out researched ways in which women are discriminated against, especially in STEM areas where women are under-represented.
Although your initial reaction was that this was a waste of time, I think you can use this experience and the feedback you get here as an opportunity to reflect - it seems from your comments that you are open to this.
I'd suggest you try the implicit bias test from Harvard, I was surprised by how much implicit bias it showed that I have. Some research has shown that people who take this sort of test are more introspective about their own biases afterwards. Even if you show little bias on that test, it may be instructive to see how much bias is seen in the population as a whole because people tend to underestimate bias experienced by other groups.
I don't think having implicit bias is something that reflects poorly on any individual, it's more of a product of society. What reflects on individuals is whether they try to become aware of the biases experienced by others and how their own implicit biases might influence their behavior.
I think your professor was trying to point out some of these biases to make students in the class more aware of them. It seems unlikely to me that any men in the course would literally think to themselves "Let's give the women the easy/secretarial tasks in group work!" (and if they do, they are probably never going to be convinced otherwise) - instead, they might accidentally do it by simply not thinking. By simply thinking about it more, and even by asking this question here, it seems to me like your professor was successful, even if you ultimately decide that you disagree with the approach.
Carter, A. J., Croft, A., Lukas, D., & Sandstrom, G. M. (2018). Women’s visibility in academic seminars: Women ask fewer questions than men. PloS one, 13(9), e0202743.
Cheryan, S., Ziegler, S. A., Montoya, A. K., & Jiang, L. (2017). Why are some STEM fields more gender balanced than others?. Psychological Bulletin, 143(1), 1.
Kaatz, A., Gutierrez, B., & Carnes, M. (2014). Threats to objectivity in peer review: the case of gender. Trends in pharmacological sciences, 35(8), 371-373.
Lerback, J., & Hanson, B. (2017). Journals invite too few women to referee. Nature News, 541(7638), 455.
Monteith, M. J., Ashburn-Nardo, L., Voils, C. I., & Czopp, A. M. (2002). Putting the brakes on prejudice: On the development and operation of cues for control. Journal of personality and social psychology, 83(5), 1029.
Swim, J. K., & Sanna, L. J. (1996). He's skilled, she's lucky: A meta-analysis of observers' attributions for women's and men's successes and failures. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 22(5), 507-519.
5
Thanks for your feedback, the reason I ask is because I am doubtful whether my "feelings" are justified, as of course I am biased in this issue due to my gender. Is the test not very controversial, as it often fails to reproduce results for the same person? I will work through your further reading.
– B.Swan
6 hours ago
7
@B.Swan The implicit bias test does yield reproducible results on the population level. It's not intended to be used as a quantification of an individual's bias, but it is instructive as a heuristic that demonstrates that nearly everyone has biases.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
3
@B.Swan I'd like to think I am strongly in favor of gender equality. I failed miserably on the test (i.e., it revealed a lot of implicit bias). I found that a bit eye opening, so I encourage others to check it out. Regardless of your results on the test, you should look at the population-level results, as ElizabethHenning suggests.
– Bryan Krause
6 hours ago
2
I like the reference list--I wasn't familiar with these. I posted links to a bunch of other references during an argument in a chat room here about whether men are given systematic advantages in STEM fields. I wonder if there shouldn't be a community-wiki or something where people can be pointed.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
5
That implicit bias test is terribly made though
– Run like hell
1 hour ago
|
show 14 more comments
(edited this answer to consider some points raised in the comments and try to address OP more constructively)
Yes, it is acceptable for a professor to work to counter the effects of gender discrimination.
Yes, it is acceptable for a professor to warn a male-predominant class to not discriminate against women by giving them the "easy" tasks.
The professor is not accusing you as an individual of sexism, they are pointing out researched ways in which women are discriminated against, especially in STEM areas where women are under-represented.
Although your initial reaction was that this was a waste of time, I think you can use this experience and the feedback you get here as an opportunity to reflect - it seems from your comments that you are open to this.
I'd suggest you try the implicit bias test from Harvard, I was surprised by how much implicit bias it showed that I have. Some research has shown that people who take this sort of test are more introspective about their own biases afterwards. Even if you show little bias on that test, it may be instructive to see how much bias is seen in the population as a whole because people tend to underestimate bias experienced by other groups.
I don't think having implicit bias is something that reflects poorly on any individual, it's more of a product of society. What reflects on individuals is whether they try to become aware of the biases experienced by others and how their own implicit biases might influence their behavior.
I think your professor was trying to point out some of these biases to make students in the class more aware of them. It seems unlikely to me that any men in the course would literally think to themselves "Let's give the women the easy/secretarial tasks in group work!" (and if they do, they are probably never going to be convinced otherwise) - instead, they might accidentally do it by simply not thinking. By simply thinking about it more, and even by asking this question here, it seems to me like your professor was successful, even if you ultimately decide that you disagree with the approach.
Carter, A. J., Croft, A., Lukas, D., & Sandstrom, G. M. (2018). Women’s visibility in academic seminars: Women ask fewer questions than men. PloS one, 13(9), e0202743.
Cheryan, S., Ziegler, S. A., Montoya, A. K., & Jiang, L. (2017). Why are some STEM fields more gender balanced than others?. Psychological Bulletin, 143(1), 1.
Kaatz, A., Gutierrez, B., & Carnes, M. (2014). Threats to objectivity in peer review: the case of gender. Trends in pharmacological sciences, 35(8), 371-373.
Lerback, J., & Hanson, B. (2017). Journals invite too few women to referee. Nature News, 541(7638), 455.
Monteith, M. J., Ashburn-Nardo, L., Voils, C. I., & Czopp, A. M. (2002). Putting the brakes on prejudice: On the development and operation of cues for control. Journal of personality and social psychology, 83(5), 1029.
Swim, J. K., & Sanna, L. J. (1996). He's skilled, she's lucky: A meta-analysis of observers' attributions for women's and men's successes and failures. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 22(5), 507-519.
5
Thanks for your feedback, the reason I ask is because I am doubtful whether my "feelings" are justified, as of course I am biased in this issue due to my gender. Is the test not very controversial, as it often fails to reproduce results for the same person? I will work through your further reading.
– B.Swan
6 hours ago
7
@B.Swan The implicit bias test does yield reproducible results on the population level. It's not intended to be used as a quantification of an individual's bias, but it is instructive as a heuristic that demonstrates that nearly everyone has biases.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
3
@B.Swan I'd like to think I am strongly in favor of gender equality. I failed miserably on the test (i.e., it revealed a lot of implicit bias). I found that a bit eye opening, so I encourage others to check it out. Regardless of your results on the test, you should look at the population-level results, as ElizabethHenning suggests.
– Bryan Krause
6 hours ago
2
I like the reference list--I wasn't familiar with these. I posted links to a bunch of other references during an argument in a chat room here about whether men are given systematic advantages in STEM fields. I wonder if there shouldn't be a community-wiki or something where people can be pointed.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
5
That implicit bias test is terribly made though
– Run like hell
1 hour ago
|
show 14 more comments
(edited this answer to consider some points raised in the comments and try to address OP more constructively)
Yes, it is acceptable for a professor to work to counter the effects of gender discrimination.
Yes, it is acceptable for a professor to warn a male-predominant class to not discriminate against women by giving them the "easy" tasks.
The professor is not accusing you as an individual of sexism, they are pointing out researched ways in which women are discriminated against, especially in STEM areas where women are under-represented.
Although your initial reaction was that this was a waste of time, I think you can use this experience and the feedback you get here as an opportunity to reflect - it seems from your comments that you are open to this.
I'd suggest you try the implicit bias test from Harvard, I was surprised by how much implicit bias it showed that I have. Some research has shown that people who take this sort of test are more introspective about their own biases afterwards. Even if you show little bias on that test, it may be instructive to see how much bias is seen in the population as a whole because people tend to underestimate bias experienced by other groups.
I don't think having implicit bias is something that reflects poorly on any individual, it's more of a product of society. What reflects on individuals is whether they try to become aware of the biases experienced by others and how their own implicit biases might influence their behavior.
I think your professor was trying to point out some of these biases to make students in the class more aware of them. It seems unlikely to me that any men in the course would literally think to themselves "Let's give the women the easy/secretarial tasks in group work!" (and if they do, they are probably never going to be convinced otherwise) - instead, they might accidentally do it by simply not thinking. By simply thinking about it more, and even by asking this question here, it seems to me like your professor was successful, even if you ultimately decide that you disagree with the approach.
Carter, A. J., Croft, A., Lukas, D., & Sandstrom, G. M. (2018). Women’s visibility in academic seminars: Women ask fewer questions than men. PloS one, 13(9), e0202743.
Cheryan, S., Ziegler, S. A., Montoya, A. K., & Jiang, L. (2017). Why are some STEM fields more gender balanced than others?. Psychological Bulletin, 143(1), 1.
Kaatz, A., Gutierrez, B., & Carnes, M. (2014). Threats to objectivity in peer review: the case of gender. Trends in pharmacological sciences, 35(8), 371-373.
Lerback, J., & Hanson, B. (2017). Journals invite too few women to referee. Nature News, 541(7638), 455.
Monteith, M. J., Ashburn-Nardo, L., Voils, C. I., & Czopp, A. M. (2002). Putting the brakes on prejudice: On the development and operation of cues for control. Journal of personality and social psychology, 83(5), 1029.
Swim, J. K., & Sanna, L. J. (1996). He's skilled, she's lucky: A meta-analysis of observers' attributions for women's and men's successes and failures. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 22(5), 507-519.
(edited this answer to consider some points raised in the comments and try to address OP more constructively)
Yes, it is acceptable for a professor to work to counter the effects of gender discrimination.
Yes, it is acceptable for a professor to warn a male-predominant class to not discriminate against women by giving them the "easy" tasks.
The professor is not accusing you as an individual of sexism, they are pointing out researched ways in which women are discriminated against, especially in STEM areas where women are under-represented.
Although your initial reaction was that this was a waste of time, I think you can use this experience and the feedback you get here as an opportunity to reflect - it seems from your comments that you are open to this.
I'd suggest you try the implicit bias test from Harvard, I was surprised by how much implicit bias it showed that I have. Some research has shown that people who take this sort of test are more introspective about their own biases afterwards. Even if you show little bias on that test, it may be instructive to see how much bias is seen in the population as a whole because people tend to underestimate bias experienced by other groups.
I don't think having implicit bias is something that reflects poorly on any individual, it's more of a product of society. What reflects on individuals is whether they try to become aware of the biases experienced by others and how their own implicit biases might influence their behavior.
I think your professor was trying to point out some of these biases to make students in the class more aware of them. It seems unlikely to me that any men in the course would literally think to themselves "Let's give the women the easy/secretarial tasks in group work!" (and if they do, they are probably never going to be convinced otherwise) - instead, they might accidentally do it by simply not thinking. By simply thinking about it more, and even by asking this question here, it seems to me like your professor was successful, even if you ultimately decide that you disagree with the approach.
Carter, A. J., Croft, A., Lukas, D., & Sandstrom, G. M. (2018). Women’s visibility in academic seminars: Women ask fewer questions than men. PloS one, 13(9), e0202743.
Cheryan, S., Ziegler, S. A., Montoya, A. K., & Jiang, L. (2017). Why are some STEM fields more gender balanced than others?. Psychological Bulletin, 143(1), 1.
Kaatz, A., Gutierrez, B., & Carnes, M. (2014). Threats to objectivity in peer review: the case of gender. Trends in pharmacological sciences, 35(8), 371-373.
Lerback, J., & Hanson, B. (2017). Journals invite too few women to referee. Nature News, 541(7638), 455.
Monteith, M. J., Ashburn-Nardo, L., Voils, C. I., & Czopp, A. M. (2002). Putting the brakes on prejudice: On the development and operation of cues for control. Journal of personality and social psychology, 83(5), 1029.
Swim, J. K., & Sanna, L. J. (1996). He's skilled, she's lucky: A meta-analysis of observers' attributions for women's and men's successes and failures. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 22(5), 507-519.
edited 7 mins ago
answered 6 hours ago
Bryan KrauseBryan Krause
15.7k24368
15.7k24368
5
Thanks for your feedback, the reason I ask is because I am doubtful whether my "feelings" are justified, as of course I am biased in this issue due to my gender. Is the test not very controversial, as it often fails to reproduce results for the same person? I will work through your further reading.
– B.Swan
6 hours ago
7
@B.Swan The implicit bias test does yield reproducible results on the population level. It's not intended to be used as a quantification of an individual's bias, but it is instructive as a heuristic that demonstrates that nearly everyone has biases.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
3
@B.Swan I'd like to think I am strongly in favor of gender equality. I failed miserably on the test (i.e., it revealed a lot of implicit bias). I found that a bit eye opening, so I encourage others to check it out. Regardless of your results on the test, you should look at the population-level results, as ElizabethHenning suggests.
– Bryan Krause
6 hours ago
2
I like the reference list--I wasn't familiar with these. I posted links to a bunch of other references during an argument in a chat room here about whether men are given systematic advantages in STEM fields. I wonder if there shouldn't be a community-wiki or something where people can be pointed.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
5
That implicit bias test is terribly made though
– Run like hell
1 hour ago
|
show 14 more comments
5
Thanks for your feedback, the reason I ask is because I am doubtful whether my "feelings" are justified, as of course I am biased in this issue due to my gender. Is the test not very controversial, as it often fails to reproduce results for the same person? I will work through your further reading.
– B.Swan
6 hours ago
7
@B.Swan The implicit bias test does yield reproducible results on the population level. It's not intended to be used as a quantification of an individual's bias, but it is instructive as a heuristic that demonstrates that nearly everyone has biases.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
3
@B.Swan I'd like to think I am strongly in favor of gender equality. I failed miserably on the test (i.e., it revealed a lot of implicit bias). I found that a bit eye opening, so I encourage others to check it out. Regardless of your results on the test, you should look at the population-level results, as ElizabethHenning suggests.
– Bryan Krause
6 hours ago
2
I like the reference list--I wasn't familiar with these. I posted links to a bunch of other references during an argument in a chat room here about whether men are given systematic advantages in STEM fields. I wonder if there shouldn't be a community-wiki or something where people can be pointed.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
5
That implicit bias test is terribly made though
– Run like hell
1 hour ago
5
5
Thanks for your feedback, the reason I ask is because I am doubtful whether my "feelings" are justified, as of course I am biased in this issue due to my gender. Is the test not very controversial, as it often fails to reproduce results for the same person? I will work through your further reading.
– B.Swan
6 hours ago
Thanks for your feedback, the reason I ask is because I am doubtful whether my "feelings" are justified, as of course I am biased in this issue due to my gender. Is the test not very controversial, as it often fails to reproduce results for the same person? I will work through your further reading.
– B.Swan
6 hours ago
7
7
@B.Swan The implicit bias test does yield reproducible results on the population level. It's not intended to be used as a quantification of an individual's bias, but it is instructive as a heuristic that demonstrates that nearly everyone has biases.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
@B.Swan The implicit bias test does yield reproducible results on the population level. It's not intended to be used as a quantification of an individual's bias, but it is instructive as a heuristic that demonstrates that nearly everyone has biases.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
3
3
@B.Swan I'd like to think I am strongly in favor of gender equality. I failed miserably on the test (i.e., it revealed a lot of implicit bias). I found that a bit eye opening, so I encourage others to check it out. Regardless of your results on the test, you should look at the population-level results, as ElizabethHenning suggests.
– Bryan Krause
6 hours ago
@B.Swan I'd like to think I am strongly in favor of gender equality. I failed miserably on the test (i.e., it revealed a lot of implicit bias). I found that a bit eye opening, so I encourage others to check it out. Regardless of your results on the test, you should look at the population-level results, as ElizabethHenning suggests.
– Bryan Krause
6 hours ago
2
2
I like the reference list--I wasn't familiar with these. I posted links to a bunch of other references during an argument in a chat room here about whether men are given systematic advantages in STEM fields. I wonder if there shouldn't be a community-wiki or something where people can be pointed.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
I like the reference list--I wasn't familiar with these. I posted links to a bunch of other references during an argument in a chat room here about whether men are given systematic advantages in STEM fields. I wonder if there shouldn't be a community-wiki or something where people can be pointed.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
5
5
That implicit bias test is terribly made though
– Run like hell
1 hour ago
That implicit bias test is terribly made though
– Run like hell
1 hour ago
|
show 14 more comments
Is my view justified?
It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender engage in sexist behaviors and need to be told not to engage in them any more. And yet, you yourself acknowledge that this assumption is likely correct. Her statement was of a general nature; she didn’t personally accuse you of anything, so personally I don’t see why you would feel offended.
You are perhaps justified in thinking the discussion was not the best use of the class time, but that would be your opinion, which may differ from other people’s opinion. Not all students have to agree all the time that what a professor is talking about at any given moment is the best thing for them to talk about. Some disagreement on such things is perfectly reasonable and probably unavoidable. But just the fact you think something was a waste of time does not imply that the professor is doing something wrong by talking about it.
Is such behavior acceptable for a professor?
Yes. The professor is doing their job of trying to achieve the best educational outcome for their class. Whether or not I agree that this topic was worth bringing up in class in the way they brought it up, there is nothing about it that qualifies as “unacceptable” behavior, such as harassment or discrimination, as far as I can tell.
Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
You are free to do so, but it’s not clear to me what you are hoping to achieve by doing that. I can’t advise you on whether you should or shouldn’t do it.
8
In fact, the students’ opinions about what is a good use of class time are largely irrelevant compared to the expertise of the professor regarding how to smoothly run a class. This speech is probably arising because of past experiences teaching this class and past behavior of the students.
– Dawn
5 hours ago
4
+1, but I think that it might be constructive for the OP to let the professor know in a non-accusatory way his experience of emotional discomfiture although he intellectually agrees with the motivation. It's possible that with some discussion there could be a positive resolution instead of coming away with the experience that his feelings don't matter.
– Elizabeth Henning
4 hours ago
6
"It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender...". Already you have a problem. He specifically complained at being categorized into a "flawed" gender that he should take responsibility for at all, rather than being treated as an individual who is just as likely or unlikely to misbehave as any other individual.
– A Simple Algorithm
4 hours ago
7
@llama that sounds like a textbook example of a prejudice.
– A Simple Algorithm
3 hours ago
4
@llama, I thought evidence generally points to sexism acting against women, from both men and women.
– Axeman
3 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Is my view justified?
It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender engage in sexist behaviors and need to be told not to engage in them any more. And yet, you yourself acknowledge that this assumption is likely correct. Her statement was of a general nature; she didn’t personally accuse you of anything, so personally I don’t see why you would feel offended.
You are perhaps justified in thinking the discussion was not the best use of the class time, but that would be your opinion, which may differ from other people’s opinion. Not all students have to agree all the time that what a professor is talking about at any given moment is the best thing for them to talk about. Some disagreement on such things is perfectly reasonable and probably unavoidable. But just the fact you think something was a waste of time does not imply that the professor is doing something wrong by talking about it.
Is such behavior acceptable for a professor?
Yes. The professor is doing their job of trying to achieve the best educational outcome for their class. Whether or not I agree that this topic was worth bringing up in class in the way they brought it up, there is nothing about it that qualifies as “unacceptable” behavior, such as harassment or discrimination, as far as I can tell.
Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
You are free to do so, but it’s not clear to me what you are hoping to achieve by doing that. I can’t advise you on whether you should or shouldn’t do it.
8
In fact, the students’ opinions about what is a good use of class time are largely irrelevant compared to the expertise of the professor regarding how to smoothly run a class. This speech is probably arising because of past experiences teaching this class and past behavior of the students.
– Dawn
5 hours ago
4
+1, but I think that it might be constructive for the OP to let the professor know in a non-accusatory way his experience of emotional discomfiture although he intellectually agrees with the motivation. It's possible that with some discussion there could be a positive resolution instead of coming away with the experience that his feelings don't matter.
– Elizabeth Henning
4 hours ago
6
"It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender...". Already you have a problem. He specifically complained at being categorized into a "flawed" gender that he should take responsibility for at all, rather than being treated as an individual who is just as likely or unlikely to misbehave as any other individual.
– A Simple Algorithm
4 hours ago
7
@llama that sounds like a textbook example of a prejudice.
– A Simple Algorithm
3 hours ago
4
@llama, I thought evidence generally points to sexism acting against women, from both men and women.
– Axeman
3 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
Is my view justified?
It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender engage in sexist behaviors and need to be told not to engage in them any more. And yet, you yourself acknowledge that this assumption is likely correct. Her statement was of a general nature; she didn’t personally accuse you of anything, so personally I don’t see why you would feel offended.
You are perhaps justified in thinking the discussion was not the best use of the class time, but that would be your opinion, which may differ from other people’s opinion. Not all students have to agree all the time that what a professor is talking about at any given moment is the best thing for them to talk about. Some disagreement on such things is perfectly reasonable and probably unavoidable. But just the fact you think something was a waste of time does not imply that the professor is doing something wrong by talking about it.
Is such behavior acceptable for a professor?
Yes. The professor is doing their job of trying to achieve the best educational outcome for their class. Whether or not I agree that this topic was worth bringing up in class in the way they brought it up, there is nothing about it that qualifies as “unacceptable” behavior, such as harassment or discrimination, as far as I can tell.
Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
You are free to do so, but it’s not clear to me what you are hoping to achieve by doing that. I can’t advise you on whether you should or shouldn’t do it.
Is my view justified?
It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender engage in sexist behaviors and need to be told not to engage in them any more. And yet, you yourself acknowledge that this assumption is likely correct. Her statement was of a general nature; she didn’t personally accuse you of anything, so personally I don’t see why you would feel offended.
You are perhaps justified in thinking the discussion was not the best use of the class time, but that would be your opinion, which may differ from other people’s opinion. Not all students have to agree all the time that what a professor is talking about at any given moment is the best thing for them to talk about. Some disagreement on such things is perfectly reasonable and probably unavoidable. But just the fact you think something was a waste of time does not imply that the professor is doing something wrong by talking about it.
Is such behavior acceptable for a professor?
Yes. The professor is doing their job of trying to achieve the best educational outcome for their class. Whether or not I agree that this topic was worth bringing up in class in the way they brought it up, there is nothing about it that qualifies as “unacceptable” behavior, such as harassment or discrimination, as far as I can tell.
Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
You are free to do so, but it’s not clear to me what you are hoping to achieve by doing that. I can’t advise you on whether you should or shouldn’t do it.
answered 5 hours ago
Dan RomikDan Romik
87.5k22190287
87.5k22190287
8
In fact, the students’ opinions about what is a good use of class time are largely irrelevant compared to the expertise of the professor regarding how to smoothly run a class. This speech is probably arising because of past experiences teaching this class and past behavior of the students.
– Dawn
5 hours ago
4
+1, but I think that it might be constructive for the OP to let the professor know in a non-accusatory way his experience of emotional discomfiture although he intellectually agrees with the motivation. It's possible that with some discussion there could be a positive resolution instead of coming away with the experience that his feelings don't matter.
– Elizabeth Henning
4 hours ago
6
"It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender...". Already you have a problem. He specifically complained at being categorized into a "flawed" gender that he should take responsibility for at all, rather than being treated as an individual who is just as likely or unlikely to misbehave as any other individual.
– A Simple Algorithm
4 hours ago
7
@llama that sounds like a textbook example of a prejudice.
– A Simple Algorithm
3 hours ago
4
@llama, I thought evidence generally points to sexism acting against women, from both men and women.
– Axeman
3 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
8
In fact, the students’ opinions about what is a good use of class time are largely irrelevant compared to the expertise of the professor regarding how to smoothly run a class. This speech is probably arising because of past experiences teaching this class and past behavior of the students.
– Dawn
5 hours ago
4
+1, but I think that it might be constructive for the OP to let the professor know in a non-accusatory way his experience of emotional discomfiture although he intellectually agrees with the motivation. It's possible that with some discussion there could be a positive resolution instead of coming away with the experience that his feelings don't matter.
– Elizabeth Henning
4 hours ago
6
"It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender...". Already you have a problem. He specifically complained at being categorized into a "flawed" gender that he should take responsibility for at all, rather than being treated as an individual who is just as likely or unlikely to misbehave as any other individual.
– A Simple Algorithm
4 hours ago
7
@llama that sounds like a textbook example of a prejudice.
– A Simple Algorithm
3 hours ago
4
@llama, I thought evidence generally points to sexism acting against women, from both men and women.
– Axeman
3 hours ago
8
8
In fact, the students’ opinions about what is a good use of class time are largely irrelevant compared to the expertise of the professor regarding how to smoothly run a class. This speech is probably arising because of past experiences teaching this class and past behavior of the students.
– Dawn
5 hours ago
In fact, the students’ opinions about what is a good use of class time are largely irrelevant compared to the expertise of the professor regarding how to smoothly run a class. This speech is probably arising because of past experiences teaching this class and past behavior of the students.
– Dawn
5 hours ago
4
4
+1, but I think that it might be constructive for the OP to let the professor know in a non-accusatory way his experience of emotional discomfiture although he intellectually agrees with the motivation. It's possible that with some discussion there could be a positive resolution instead of coming away with the experience that his feelings don't matter.
– Elizabeth Henning
4 hours ago
+1, but I think that it might be constructive for the OP to let the professor know in a non-accusatory way his experience of emotional discomfiture although he intellectually agrees with the motivation. It's possible that with some discussion there could be a positive resolution instead of coming away with the experience that his feelings don't matter.
– Elizabeth Henning
4 hours ago
6
6
"It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender...". Already you have a problem. He specifically complained at being categorized into a "flawed" gender that he should take responsibility for at all, rather than being treated as an individual who is just as likely or unlikely to misbehave as any other individual.
– A Simple Algorithm
4 hours ago
"It sounds like you feel disrespected by the professor’s implicit assumption that some members of your gender...". Already you have a problem. He specifically complained at being categorized into a "flawed" gender that he should take responsibility for at all, rather than being treated as an individual who is just as likely or unlikely to misbehave as any other individual.
– A Simple Algorithm
4 hours ago
7
7
@llama that sounds like a textbook example of a prejudice.
– A Simple Algorithm
3 hours ago
@llama that sounds like a textbook example of a prejudice.
– A Simple Algorithm
3 hours ago
4
4
@llama, I thought evidence generally points to sexism acting against women, from both men and women.
– Axeman
3 hours ago
@llama, I thought evidence generally points to sexism acting against women, from both men and women.
– Axeman
3 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
No, it’s not acceptable. Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women, and, moreover, the message that she was sending to the women in the class was essentially “Prepare to get discriminated against,” which isn’t a good message to send.
What should you do about it? Talking to her is unlikely to have an effect, because it is very difficult to convince people to alter their political ideologies, and she might have tenure so she might not have anything to fear from you making a complaint to the university.
Instead, just give her a poor rating in your feedback survey for the course, and leave a comment in the general feedback comment section explaining why. Universities use these surveys as a way of evaluating the performance of their instructors, so a poor review may well hit her where it hurts: in the wallet.
7
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that this answer is not going to get a lot of "likes" :-)
– Wolfgang Bangerth
1 hour ago
3
@WolfgangBangerth Sadly, now that this question is HNQ on StackOverflow, I predict that it will.
– Elizabeth Henning
1 hour ago
3
It actually has, at the time I’m making this comment; it just has nearly as many downvotes, as well. I knew it was going to be controversial when I posted it, but I figured it ought to be said.
– nick012000
1 hour ago
2
Just to make it clear, I do not want my professor to suffer any consequences, this is not my goal at all. I also do not want to change their mind, but I would like to give feedback.
– B.Swan
1 hour ago
4
Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women. I agree with that statement, but can you explain in what way the professor discriminated against men? Is she giving lower grades to male students or otherwise penalizing them based on their gender?
– Dan Romik
36 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
No, it’s not acceptable. Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women, and, moreover, the message that she was sending to the women in the class was essentially “Prepare to get discriminated against,” which isn’t a good message to send.
What should you do about it? Talking to her is unlikely to have an effect, because it is very difficult to convince people to alter their political ideologies, and she might have tenure so she might not have anything to fear from you making a complaint to the university.
Instead, just give her a poor rating in your feedback survey for the course, and leave a comment in the general feedback comment section explaining why. Universities use these surveys as a way of evaluating the performance of their instructors, so a poor review may well hit her where it hurts: in the wallet.
7
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that this answer is not going to get a lot of "likes" :-)
– Wolfgang Bangerth
1 hour ago
3
@WolfgangBangerth Sadly, now that this question is HNQ on StackOverflow, I predict that it will.
– Elizabeth Henning
1 hour ago
3
It actually has, at the time I’m making this comment; it just has nearly as many downvotes, as well. I knew it was going to be controversial when I posted it, but I figured it ought to be said.
– nick012000
1 hour ago
2
Just to make it clear, I do not want my professor to suffer any consequences, this is not my goal at all. I also do not want to change their mind, but I would like to give feedback.
– B.Swan
1 hour ago
4
Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women. I agree with that statement, but can you explain in what way the professor discriminated against men? Is she giving lower grades to male students or otherwise penalizing them based on their gender?
– Dan Romik
36 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
No, it’s not acceptable. Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women, and, moreover, the message that she was sending to the women in the class was essentially “Prepare to get discriminated against,” which isn’t a good message to send.
What should you do about it? Talking to her is unlikely to have an effect, because it is very difficult to convince people to alter their political ideologies, and she might have tenure so she might not have anything to fear from you making a complaint to the university.
Instead, just give her a poor rating in your feedback survey for the course, and leave a comment in the general feedback comment section explaining why. Universities use these surveys as a way of evaluating the performance of their instructors, so a poor review may well hit her where it hurts: in the wallet.
No, it’s not acceptable. Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women, and, moreover, the message that she was sending to the women in the class was essentially “Prepare to get discriminated against,” which isn’t a good message to send.
What should you do about it? Talking to her is unlikely to have an effect, because it is very difficult to convince people to alter their political ideologies, and she might have tenure so she might not have anything to fear from you making a complaint to the university.
Instead, just give her a poor rating in your feedback survey for the course, and leave a comment in the general feedback comment section explaining why. Universities use these surveys as a way of evaluating the performance of their instructors, so a poor review may well hit her where it hurts: in the wallet.
answered 2 hours ago
nick012000nick012000
1,2011211
1,2011211
7
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that this answer is not going to get a lot of "likes" :-)
– Wolfgang Bangerth
1 hour ago
3
@WolfgangBangerth Sadly, now that this question is HNQ on StackOverflow, I predict that it will.
– Elizabeth Henning
1 hour ago
3
It actually has, at the time I’m making this comment; it just has nearly as many downvotes, as well. I knew it was going to be controversial when I posted it, but I figured it ought to be said.
– nick012000
1 hour ago
2
Just to make it clear, I do not want my professor to suffer any consequences, this is not my goal at all. I also do not want to change their mind, but I would like to give feedback.
– B.Swan
1 hour ago
4
Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women. I agree with that statement, but can you explain in what way the professor discriminated against men? Is she giving lower grades to male students or otherwise penalizing them based on their gender?
– Dan Romik
36 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
7
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that this answer is not going to get a lot of "likes" :-)
– Wolfgang Bangerth
1 hour ago
3
@WolfgangBangerth Sadly, now that this question is HNQ on StackOverflow, I predict that it will.
– Elizabeth Henning
1 hour ago
3
It actually has, at the time I’m making this comment; it just has nearly as many downvotes, as well. I knew it was going to be controversial when I posted it, but I figured it ought to be said.
– nick012000
1 hour ago
2
Just to make it clear, I do not want my professor to suffer any consequences, this is not my goal at all. I also do not want to change their mind, but I would like to give feedback.
– B.Swan
1 hour ago
4
Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women. I agree with that statement, but can you explain in what way the professor discriminated against men? Is she giving lower grades to male students or otherwise penalizing them based on their gender?
– Dan Romik
36 mins ago
7
7
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that this answer is not going to get a lot of "likes" :-)
– Wolfgang Bangerth
1 hour ago
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that this answer is not going to get a lot of "likes" :-)
– Wolfgang Bangerth
1 hour ago
3
3
@WolfgangBangerth Sadly, now that this question is HNQ on StackOverflow, I predict that it will.
– Elizabeth Henning
1 hour ago
@WolfgangBangerth Sadly, now that this question is HNQ on StackOverflow, I predict that it will.
– Elizabeth Henning
1 hour ago
3
3
It actually has, at the time I’m making this comment; it just has nearly as many downvotes, as well. I knew it was going to be controversial when I posted it, but I figured it ought to be said.
– nick012000
1 hour ago
It actually has, at the time I’m making this comment; it just has nearly as many downvotes, as well. I knew it was going to be controversial when I posted it, but I figured it ought to be said.
– nick012000
1 hour ago
2
2
Just to make it clear, I do not want my professor to suffer any consequences, this is not my goal at all. I also do not want to change their mind, but I would like to give feedback.
– B.Swan
1 hour ago
Just to make it clear, I do not want my professor to suffer any consequences, this is not my goal at all. I also do not want to change their mind, but I would like to give feedback.
– B.Swan
1 hour ago
4
4
Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women. I agree with that statement, but can you explain in what way the professor discriminated against men? Is she giving lower grades to male students or otherwise penalizing them based on their gender?
– Dan Romik
36 mins ago
Discrimination against men is just as unacceptable as discrimination against women. I agree with that statement, but can you explain in what way the professor discriminated against men? Is she giving lower grades to male students or otherwise penalizing them based on their gender?
– Dan Romik
36 mins ago
|
show 3 more comments
Is such behavior acceptable for a professor?
Yes. This the whole idea of academic freedom (as exemplified by tenure) -- professors should be able to work with uncomfortable issues without worrying about getting fired. I recognize that academic freedom would likely not protect them if they had made similar but politically-incorrect statements, but that's a separate issue.
Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
Depends on the professor. If they are a good professor, there might be an opportunity for discussion and perhaps you would both learn something. But sadly, many professors view this matter as sacrosanct, and will just write you off as a misogynist without allowing an open discussion. (In their defense, many students also broach the matter in a very hostile way..."you hate men" sounds very different than "Some of your comments made me uncomfortable.")
Is my view justified?
Doesn't matter. This is a well-studied, very controversial subject where tempers run hot and everyone thinks they are an expert. Studying such subjects has its place, but I'm assuming you are not currently an expert in gender relations. You're certainly entitled to tell the professor how their comments made you feel, but rather than getting into a debate with your professor, I would suggest you focus on learning STEM.
1
Great answer, especially the second part. You should definitely talk to the professor if you were really made uncomfortable, but don't be accusatory and instead open a dialogue. Also, as far as whether the view is justified, I agree with your answer, but I would also say that OP's feelings are in fact justified, and it may be worth exploring why they have them.
– AlexanderJ93
1 hour ago
@DanRomik -- the point is not "the professor has tenure, therefore it's OK." The point is that universities allow different views even in thorny, uncomfortable situations (tenure is a good example of how it strives to promote this). I personally don't really like this professor's approach of preemptively castigating people based on their identity. But for better or worse, it is "acceptable" -- if OP complains, the university will likely say that the professor was simply exercising this freedom to support her female students (not saying I agree with this).
– cag51
34 mins ago
@DanRomik - fine, done.
– cag51
11 mins ago
add a comment |
Is such behavior acceptable for a professor?
Yes. This the whole idea of academic freedom (as exemplified by tenure) -- professors should be able to work with uncomfortable issues without worrying about getting fired. I recognize that academic freedom would likely not protect them if they had made similar but politically-incorrect statements, but that's a separate issue.
Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
Depends on the professor. If they are a good professor, there might be an opportunity for discussion and perhaps you would both learn something. But sadly, many professors view this matter as sacrosanct, and will just write you off as a misogynist without allowing an open discussion. (In their defense, many students also broach the matter in a very hostile way..."you hate men" sounds very different than "Some of your comments made me uncomfortable.")
Is my view justified?
Doesn't matter. This is a well-studied, very controversial subject where tempers run hot and everyone thinks they are an expert. Studying such subjects has its place, but I'm assuming you are not currently an expert in gender relations. You're certainly entitled to tell the professor how their comments made you feel, but rather than getting into a debate with your professor, I would suggest you focus on learning STEM.
1
Great answer, especially the second part. You should definitely talk to the professor if you were really made uncomfortable, but don't be accusatory and instead open a dialogue. Also, as far as whether the view is justified, I agree with your answer, but I would also say that OP's feelings are in fact justified, and it may be worth exploring why they have them.
– AlexanderJ93
1 hour ago
@DanRomik -- the point is not "the professor has tenure, therefore it's OK." The point is that universities allow different views even in thorny, uncomfortable situations (tenure is a good example of how it strives to promote this). I personally don't really like this professor's approach of preemptively castigating people based on their identity. But for better or worse, it is "acceptable" -- if OP complains, the university will likely say that the professor was simply exercising this freedom to support her female students (not saying I agree with this).
– cag51
34 mins ago
@DanRomik - fine, done.
– cag51
11 mins ago
add a comment |
Is such behavior acceptable for a professor?
Yes. This the whole idea of academic freedom (as exemplified by tenure) -- professors should be able to work with uncomfortable issues without worrying about getting fired. I recognize that academic freedom would likely not protect them if they had made similar but politically-incorrect statements, but that's a separate issue.
Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
Depends on the professor. If they are a good professor, there might be an opportunity for discussion and perhaps you would both learn something. But sadly, many professors view this matter as sacrosanct, and will just write you off as a misogynist without allowing an open discussion. (In their defense, many students also broach the matter in a very hostile way..."you hate men" sounds very different than "Some of your comments made me uncomfortable.")
Is my view justified?
Doesn't matter. This is a well-studied, very controversial subject where tempers run hot and everyone thinks they are an expert. Studying such subjects has its place, but I'm assuming you are not currently an expert in gender relations. You're certainly entitled to tell the professor how their comments made you feel, but rather than getting into a debate with your professor, I would suggest you focus on learning STEM.
Is such behavior acceptable for a professor?
Yes. This the whole idea of academic freedom (as exemplified by tenure) -- professors should be able to work with uncomfortable issues without worrying about getting fired. I recognize that academic freedom would likely not protect them if they had made similar but politically-incorrect statements, but that's a separate issue.
Should I let the professor know the way I feel?
Depends on the professor. If they are a good professor, there might be an opportunity for discussion and perhaps you would both learn something. But sadly, many professors view this matter as sacrosanct, and will just write you off as a misogynist without allowing an open discussion. (In their defense, many students also broach the matter in a very hostile way..."you hate men" sounds very different than "Some of your comments made me uncomfortable.")
Is my view justified?
Doesn't matter. This is a well-studied, very controversial subject where tempers run hot and everyone thinks they are an expert. Studying such subjects has its place, but I'm assuming you are not currently an expert in gender relations. You're certainly entitled to tell the professor how their comments made you feel, but rather than getting into a debate with your professor, I would suggest you focus on learning STEM.
edited 11 mins ago
answered 4 hours ago
cag51cag51
17.8k73866
17.8k73866
1
Great answer, especially the second part. You should definitely talk to the professor if you were really made uncomfortable, but don't be accusatory and instead open a dialogue. Also, as far as whether the view is justified, I agree with your answer, but I would also say that OP's feelings are in fact justified, and it may be worth exploring why they have them.
– AlexanderJ93
1 hour ago
@DanRomik -- the point is not "the professor has tenure, therefore it's OK." The point is that universities allow different views even in thorny, uncomfortable situations (tenure is a good example of how it strives to promote this). I personally don't really like this professor's approach of preemptively castigating people based on their identity. But for better or worse, it is "acceptable" -- if OP complains, the university will likely say that the professor was simply exercising this freedom to support her female students (not saying I agree with this).
– cag51
34 mins ago
@DanRomik - fine, done.
– cag51
11 mins ago
add a comment |
1
Great answer, especially the second part. You should definitely talk to the professor if you were really made uncomfortable, but don't be accusatory and instead open a dialogue. Also, as far as whether the view is justified, I agree with your answer, but I would also say that OP's feelings are in fact justified, and it may be worth exploring why they have them.
– AlexanderJ93
1 hour ago
@DanRomik -- the point is not "the professor has tenure, therefore it's OK." The point is that universities allow different views even in thorny, uncomfortable situations (tenure is a good example of how it strives to promote this). I personally don't really like this professor's approach of preemptively castigating people based on their identity. But for better or worse, it is "acceptable" -- if OP complains, the university will likely say that the professor was simply exercising this freedom to support her female students (not saying I agree with this).
– cag51
34 mins ago
@DanRomik - fine, done.
– cag51
11 mins ago
1
1
Great answer, especially the second part. You should definitely talk to the professor if you were really made uncomfortable, but don't be accusatory and instead open a dialogue. Also, as far as whether the view is justified, I agree with your answer, but I would also say that OP's feelings are in fact justified, and it may be worth exploring why they have them.
– AlexanderJ93
1 hour ago
Great answer, especially the second part. You should definitely talk to the professor if you were really made uncomfortable, but don't be accusatory and instead open a dialogue. Also, as far as whether the view is justified, I agree with your answer, but I would also say that OP's feelings are in fact justified, and it may be worth exploring why they have them.
– AlexanderJ93
1 hour ago
@DanRomik -- the point is not "the professor has tenure, therefore it's OK." The point is that universities allow different views even in thorny, uncomfortable situations (tenure is a good example of how it strives to promote this). I personally don't really like this professor's approach of preemptively castigating people based on their identity. But for better or worse, it is "acceptable" -- if OP complains, the university will likely say that the professor was simply exercising this freedom to support her female students (not saying I agree with this).
– cag51
34 mins ago
@DanRomik -- the point is not "the professor has tenure, therefore it's OK." The point is that universities allow different views even in thorny, uncomfortable situations (tenure is a good example of how it strives to promote this). I personally don't really like this professor's approach of preemptively castigating people based on their identity. But for better or worse, it is "acceptable" -- if OP complains, the university will likely say that the professor was simply exercising this freedom to support her female students (not saying I agree with this).
– cag51
34 mins ago
@DanRomik - fine, done.
– cag51
11 mins ago
@DanRomik - fine, done.
– cag51
11 mins ago
add a comment |
I don't really see this as some version of reverse discrimination or sexism against the men in the class, STEM fields have been dealing with a gender diversity issue for years now and efforts to curb this are only in their early stages. As someone who is currently pursuing an advanced degree in a STEM field, I tend to be optimistic and say the issues of sexism and discrimination in the sciences are (at least now) primarily implicit and unintentional, but that arguably makes this statement from your professor even more important. It may not have been intended to presume a discriminatory worldview, but instead to assuage any unconscious bias by trying to make students aware of these issues (which again, are salient in STEM fields right now).
I would also say the professor may have thought the warning more necessary given the proportions of the class. To quickly address your reasons point-by-point:
1. This does address group membership, but there's no way to treat it individually in this environment and it's still an important issue.
2. This is kind of true, but only because the fields have been male dominated in the past, which is what makes the statements necessary in the first place.
3. Could have been sexism, but I'd give the professor the benefit of the doubt and think of it more as just an attempt to encourage awareness of this potential issue.
4. This is a STEM class, therefore the diversity of the STEM fields are a pertinent topic, it may not have been a discussion of Newton's Laws, but that doesn't make it unrelated to the field. Plus, what's 5 or 10 minutes over a semester?
New contributor
Drew is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1. The class as a whole could have been adressed, avoiding picking on any group particularly. 2. If the professor told Asian students to not think higher of themselves, it would be controversial, even though Asian people excell in STEM subjects. 3. See 1. 4. How do students of the class benefit from diversity information?
– B.Swan
29 mins ago
add a comment |
I don't really see this as some version of reverse discrimination or sexism against the men in the class, STEM fields have been dealing with a gender diversity issue for years now and efforts to curb this are only in their early stages. As someone who is currently pursuing an advanced degree in a STEM field, I tend to be optimistic and say the issues of sexism and discrimination in the sciences are (at least now) primarily implicit and unintentional, but that arguably makes this statement from your professor even more important. It may not have been intended to presume a discriminatory worldview, but instead to assuage any unconscious bias by trying to make students aware of these issues (which again, are salient in STEM fields right now).
I would also say the professor may have thought the warning more necessary given the proportions of the class. To quickly address your reasons point-by-point:
1. This does address group membership, but there's no way to treat it individually in this environment and it's still an important issue.
2. This is kind of true, but only because the fields have been male dominated in the past, which is what makes the statements necessary in the first place.
3. Could have been sexism, but I'd give the professor the benefit of the doubt and think of it more as just an attempt to encourage awareness of this potential issue.
4. This is a STEM class, therefore the diversity of the STEM fields are a pertinent topic, it may not have been a discussion of Newton's Laws, but that doesn't make it unrelated to the field. Plus, what's 5 or 10 minutes over a semester?
New contributor
Drew is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1. The class as a whole could have been adressed, avoiding picking on any group particularly. 2. If the professor told Asian students to not think higher of themselves, it would be controversial, even though Asian people excell in STEM subjects. 3. See 1. 4. How do students of the class benefit from diversity information?
– B.Swan
29 mins ago
add a comment |
I don't really see this as some version of reverse discrimination or sexism against the men in the class, STEM fields have been dealing with a gender diversity issue for years now and efforts to curb this are only in their early stages. As someone who is currently pursuing an advanced degree in a STEM field, I tend to be optimistic and say the issues of sexism and discrimination in the sciences are (at least now) primarily implicit and unintentional, but that arguably makes this statement from your professor even more important. It may not have been intended to presume a discriminatory worldview, but instead to assuage any unconscious bias by trying to make students aware of these issues (which again, are salient in STEM fields right now).
I would also say the professor may have thought the warning more necessary given the proportions of the class. To quickly address your reasons point-by-point:
1. This does address group membership, but there's no way to treat it individually in this environment and it's still an important issue.
2. This is kind of true, but only because the fields have been male dominated in the past, which is what makes the statements necessary in the first place.
3. Could have been sexism, but I'd give the professor the benefit of the doubt and think of it more as just an attempt to encourage awareness of this potential issue.
4. This is a STEM class, therefore the diversity of the STEM fields are a pertinent topic, it may not have been a discussion of Newton's Laws, but that doesn't make it unrelated to the field. Plus, what's 5 or 10 minutes over a semester?
New contributor
Drew is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I don't really see this as some version of reverse discrimination or sexism against the men in the class, STEM fields have been dealing with a gender diversity issue for years now and efforts to curb this are only in their early stages. As someone who is currently pursuing an advanced degree in a STEM field, I tend to be optimistic and say the issues of sexism and discrimination in the sciences are (at least now) primarily implicit and unintentional, but that arguably makes this statement from your professor even more important. It may not have been intended to presume a discriminatory worldview, but instead to assuage any unconscious bias by trying to make students aware of these issues (which again, are salient in STEM fields right now).
I would also say the professor may have thought the warning more necessary given the proportions of the class. To quickly address your reasons point-by-point:
1. This does address group membership, but there's no way to treat it individually in this environment and it's still an important issue.
2. This is kind of true, but only because the fields have been male dominated in the past, which is what makes the statements necessary in the first place.
3. Could have been sexism, but I'd give the professor the benefit of the doubt and think of it more as just an attempt to encourage awareness of this potential issue.
4. This is a STEM class, therefore the diversity of the STEM fields are a pertinent topic, it may not have been a discussion of Newton's Laws, but that doesn't make it unrelated to the field. Plus, what's 5 or 10 minutes over a semester?
New contributor
Drew is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Drew is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 1 hour ago
DrewDrew
211
211
New contributor
Drew is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Drew is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Drew is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1. The class as a whole could have been adressed, avoiding picking on any group particularly. 2. If the professor told Asian students to not think higher of themselves, it would be controversial, even though Asian people excell in STEM subjects. 3. See 1. 4. How do students of the class benefit from diversity information?
– B.Swan
29 mins ago
add a comment |
1. The class as a whole could have been adressed, avoiding picking on any group particularly. 2. If the professor told Asian students to not think higher of themselves, it would be controversial, even though Asian people excell in STEM subjects. 3. See 1. 4. How do students of the class benefit from diversity information?
– B.Swan
29 mins ago
1. The class as a whole could have been adressed, avoiding picking on any group particularly. 2. If the professor told Asian students to not think higher of themselves, it would be controversial, even though Asian people excell in STEM subjects. 3. See 1. 4. How do students of the class benefit from diversity information?
– B.Swan
29 mins ago
1. The class as a whole could have been adressed, avoiding picking on any group particularly. 2. If the professor told Asian students to not think higher of themselves, it would be controversial, even though Asian people excell in STEM subjects. 3. See 1. 4. How do students of the class benefit from diversity information?
– B.Swan
29 mins ago
add a comment |
Unless your university is very far from the standard in the field, the offense you had to endure by feeling blanketly targetted because of your gender will be minuscule to the offense a female in a STEM career will have to endure not once but on a recurring basis.
I've been in engineering with about 3% of female students. Of those, the majority had a father in a STEM field and no male siblings providing an outlet for the father's role modeling that would have talked down their ambitions.
That's probably the situation from one generation before yours and society's clichés and images (the stuff feeding TV tropes) don't change all that fast and prejudices tend to double down before they move. I've seen my fair share of mansplaining in a number of disciplines including less male-dominated ones, and I've delivered my fair share of it as well: falling into the respective patterns is really easy.
You feel belittled by this advice. Would you also feel belittled by the suggestion to electricians to always keep one hand in the pocket when poking around live circuitry with a screw driver or probe? It is also an advice to behave in a manner minimising the results of stupidity that intelligent people should not be prone to in the first place.
I've brushed stuff in a TV set while pointing a grounded lamp with the other hand. I've seen a physics professor demonstrate the effectivity of a large Faraday cage from the inside while holding a wired microphone.
If you think yourself proof against stupid shit, it's probably because you haven't had enough opportunity to see yourself in the mirror.
Telling your offense to your professor will prime her to put your gender-related behavior under her scrutiny. You have nothing to gain from that.
Maybe wait out a year and keep your eyes and mind open. If you then still think that all-in-all her advice was unwarranted, reconsider telling her.
Yes, I think that certain suggestions are disrespectful. Would you feel offended if someone invited you to their home and instructed you to not steal anything? This is how I see it. I have been at the university for years and have worked with female group partners and there were no issues. I also had female tutors and 4 female professors, also no issues.
– B.Swan
47 mins ago
add a comment |
Unless your university is very far from the standard in the field, the offense you had to endure by feeling blanketly targetted because of your gender will be minuscule to the offense a female in a STEM career will have to endure not once but on a recurring basis.
I've been in engineering with about 3% of female students. Of those, the majority had a father in a STEM field and no male siblings providing an outlet for the father's role modeling that would have talked down their ambitions.
That's probably the situation from one generation before yours and society's clichés and images (the stuff feeding TV tropes) don't change all that fast and prejudices tend to double down before they move. I've seen my fair share of mansplaining in a number of disciplines including less male-dominated ones, and I've delivered my fair share of it as well: falling into the respective patterns is really easy.
You feel belittled by this advice. Would you also feel belittled by the suggestion to electricians to always keep one hand in the pocket when poking around live circuitry with a screw driver or probe? It is also an advice to behave in a manner minimising the results of stupidity that intelligent people should not be prone to in the first place.
I've brushed stuff in a TV set while pointing a grounded lamp with the other hand. I've seen a physics professor demonstrate the effectivity of a large Faraday cage from the inside while holding a wired microphone.
If you think yourself proof against stupid shit, it's probably because you haven't had enough opportunity to see yourself in the mirror.
Telling your offense to your professor will prime her to put your gender-related behavior under her scrutiny. You have nothing to gain from that.
Maybe wait out a year and keep your eyes and mind open. If you then still think that all-in-all her advice was unwarranted, reconsider telling her.
Yes, I think that certain suggestions are disrespectful. Would you feel offended if someone invited you to their home and instructed you to not steal anything? This is how I see it. I have been at the university for years and have worked with female group partners and there were no issues. I also had female tutors and 4 female professors, also no issues.
– B.Swan
47 mins ago
add a comment |
Unless your university is very far from the standard in the field, the offense you had to endure by feeling blanketly targetted because of your gender will be minuscule to the offense a female in a STEM career will have to endure not once but on a recurring basis.
I've been in engineering with about 3% of female students. Of those, the majority had a father in a STEM field and no male siblings providing an outlet for the father's role modeling that would have talked down their ambitions.
That's probably the situation from one generation before yours and society's clichés and images (the stuff feeding TV tropes) don't change all that fast and prejudices tend to double down before they move. I've seen my fair share of mansplaining in a number of disciplines including less male-dominated ones, and I've delivered my fair share of it as well: falling into the respective patterns is really easy.
You feel belittled by this advice. Would you also feel belittled by the suggestion to electricians to always keep one hand in the pocket when poking around live circuitry with a screw driver or probe? It is also an advice to behave in a manner minimising the results of stupidity that intelligent people should not be prone to in the first place.
I've brushed stuff in a TV set while pointing a grounded lamp with the other hand. I've seen a physics professor demonstrate the effectivity of a large Faraday cage from the inside while holding a wired microphone.
If you think yourself proof against stupid shit, it's probably because you haven't had enough opportunity to see yourself in the mirror.
Telling your offense to your professor will prime her to put your gender-related behavior under her scrutiny. You have nothing to gain from that.
Maybe wait out a year and keep your eyes and mind open. If you then still think that all-in-all her advice was unwarranted, reconsider telling her.
Unless your university is very far from the standard in the field, the offense you had to endure by feeling blanketly targetted because of your gender will be minuscule to the offense a female in a STEM career will have to endure not once but on a recurring basis.
I've been in engineering with about 3% of female students. Of those, the majority had a father in a STEM field and no male siblings providing an outlet for the father's role modeling that would have talked down their ambitions.
That's probably the situation from one generation before yours and society's clichés and images (the stuff feeding TV tropes) don't change all that fast and prejudices tend to double down before they move. I've seen my fair share of mansplaining in a number of disciplines including less male-dominated ones, and I've delivered my fair share of it as well: falling into the respective patterns is really easy.
You feel belittled by this advice. Would you also feel belittled by the suggestion to electricians to always keep one hand in the pocket when poking around live circuitry with a screw driver or probe? It is also an advice to behave in a manner minimising the results of stupidity that intelligent people should not be prone to in the first place.
I've brushed stuff in a TV set while pointing a grounded lamp with the other hand. I've seen a physics professor demonstrate the effectivity of a large Faraday cage from the inside while holding a wired microphone.
If you think yourself proof against stupid shit, it's probably because you haven't had enough opportunity to see yourself in the mirror.
Telling your offense to your professor will prime her to put your gender-related behavior under her scrutiny. You have nothing to gain from that.
Maybe wait out a year and keep your eyes and mind open. If you then still think that all-in-all her advice was unwarranted, reconsider telling her.
answered 1 hour ago
user106355
Yes, I think that certain suggestions are disrespectful. Would you feel offended if someone invited you to their home and instructed you to not steal anything? This is how I see it. I have been at the university for years and have worked with female group partners and there were no issues. I also had female tutors and 4 female professors, also no issues.
– B.Swan
47 mins ago
add a comment |
Yes, I think that certain suggestions are disrespectful. Would you feel offended if someone invited you to their home and instructed you to not steal anything? This is how I see it. I have been at the university for years and have worked with female group partners and there were no issues. I also had female tutors and 4 female professors, also no issues.
– B.Swan
47 mins ago
Yes, I think that certain suggestions are disrespectful. Would you feel offended if someone invited you to their home and instructed you to not steal anything? This is how I see it. I have been at the university for years and have worked with female group partners and there were no issues. I also had female tutors and 4 female professors, also no issues.
– B.Swan
47 mins ago
Yes, I think that certain suggestions are disrespectful. Would you feel offended if someone invited you to their home and instructed you to not steal anything? This is how I see it. I have been at the university for years and have worked with female group partners and there were no issues. I also had female tutors and 4 female professors, also no issues.
– B.Swan
47 mins ago
add a comment |
This sort of an approach is becoming increasingly popular as a way to fix the gender imbalance in academia. Gender discrimination is a problem that exists almost everywhere in society, including in academia. So, this is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. The professor cannot be criticized for addressing this issue in class, but one may question if this is going to be effective. If the professor is concerned about social dynamics among students affecting female students adversely, then that suggests that one should not organize group work where such effects can manifest itself and compromise academic results.
The bigger picture is that Western countries where efforts to curb gender discrimination have led to a lot of success when it comes to getting women in leading positions in industry, still perform quite poorly when it comes to curbing the gender imbalance in academia. If we look at other countries, we see that Iran outperforms most Western countries when it comes to getting women into academia. If we look at the former Soviet Union, we see that the participation of women in science there was an order of magnitude better than today in the West. Clearly these results cannot be explained from a model that assumes that gender discrimination is the most relevant factor.
I.m.o., the reason why today we have such a huge gender imbalance in science is because we've organized science within a capitalist framework. This has dragged down the entire scientific enterprise, there are far less women and men at work in science than there should be. Women are affected more than men by the way we've organized science, but all we notice is the difference between the participation of men and women, which is just the tip of the iceberg.
If society makes more room for science by making available more funds, then this will lead to more jobs in science. Scientists will have better job security, this will go a long way to get far more women (and also men) into science and keep them there. Women are then affected more by these issues because long term job security tends to be more important for women than for men in determining career choices. Also gender discrimination will have a far greater effect when job security issues are also at play.
add a comment |
This sort of an approach is becoming increasingly popular as a way to fix the gender imbalance in academia. Gender discrimination is a problem that exists almost everywhere in society, including in academia. So, this is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. The professor cannot be criticized for addressing this issue in class, but one may question if this is going to be effective. If the professor is concerned about social dynamics among students affecting female students adversely, then that suggests that one should not organize group work where such effects can manifest itself and compromise academic results.
The bigger picture is that Western countries where efforts to curb gender discrimination have led to a lot of success when it comes to getting women in leading positions in industry, still perform quite poorly when it comes to curbing the gender imbalance in academia. If we look at other countries, we see that Iran outperforms most Western countries when it comes to getting women into academia. If we look at the former Soviet Union, we see that the participation of women in science there was an order of magnitude better than today in the West. Clearly these results cannot be explained from a model that assumes that gender discrimination is the most relevant factor.
I.m.o., the reason why today we have such a huge gender imbalance in science is because we've organized science within a capitalist framework. This has dragged down the entire scientific enterprise, there are far less women and men at work in science than there should be. Women are affected more than men by the way we've organized science, but all we notice is the difference between the participation of men and women, which is just the tip of the iceberg.
If society makes more room for science by making available more funds, then this will lead to more jobs in science. Scientists will have better job security, this will go a long way to get far more women (and also men) into science and keep them there. Women are then affected more by these issues because long term job security tends to be more important for women than for men in determining career choices. Also gender discrimination will have a far greater effect when job security issues are also at play.
add a comment |
This sort of an approach is becoming increasingly popular as a way to fix the gender imbalance in academia. Gender discrimination is a problem that exists almost everywhere in society, including in academia. So, this is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. The professor cannot be criticized for addressing this issue in class, but one may question if this is going to be effective. If the professor is concerned about social dynamics among students affecting female students adversely, then that suggests that one should not organize group work where such effects can manifest itself and compromise academic results.
The bigger picture is that Western countries where efforts to curb gender discrimination have led to a lot of success when it comes to getting women in leading positions in industry, still perform quite poorly when it comes to curbing the gender imbalance in academia. If we look at other countries, we see that Iran outperforms most Western countries when it comes to getting women into academia. If we look at the former Soviet Union, we see that the participation of women in science there was an order of magnitude better than today in the West. Clearly these results cannot be explained from a model that assumes that gender discrimination is the most relevant factor.
I.m.o., the reason why today we have such a huge gender imbalance in science is because we've organized science within a capitalist framework. This has dragged down the entire scientific enterprise, there are far less women and men at work in science than there should be. Women are affected more than men by the way we've organized science, but all we notice is the difference between the participation of men and women, which is just the tip of the iceberg.
If society makes more room for science by making available more funds, then this will lead to more jobs in science. Scientists will have better job security, this will go a long way to get far more women (and also men) into science and keep them there. Women are then affected more by these issues because long term job security tends to be more important for women than for men in determining career choices. Also gender discrimination will have a far greater effect when job security issues are also at play.
This sort of an approach is becoming increasingly popular as a way to fix the gender imbalance in academia. Gender discrimination is a problem that exists almost everywhere in society, including in academia. So, this is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. The professor cannot be criticized for addressing this issue in class, but one may question if this is going to be effective. If the professor is concerned about social dynamics among students affecting female students adversely, then that suggests that one should not organize group work where such effects can manifest itself and compromise academic results.
The bigger picture is that Western countries where efforts to curb gender discrimination have led to a lot of success when it comes to getting women in leading positions in industry, still perform quite poorly when it comes to curbing the gender imbalance in academia. If we look at other countries, we see that Iran outperforms most Western countries when it comes to getting women into academia. If we look at the former Soviet Union, we see that the participation of women in science there was an order of magnitude better than today in the West. Clearly these results cannot be explained from a model that assumes that gender discrimination is the most relevant factor.
I.m.o., the reason why today we have such a huge gender imbalance in science is because we've organized science within a capitalist framework. This has dragged down the entire scientific enterprise, there are far less women and men at work in science than there should be. Women are affected more than men by the way we've organized science, but all we notice is the difference between the participation of men and women, which is just the tip of the iceberg.
If society makes more room for science by making available more funds, then this will lead to more jobs in science. Scientists will have better job security, this will go a long way to get far more women (and also men) into science and keep them there. Women are then affected more by these issues because long term job security tends to be more important for women than for men in determining career choices. Also gender discrimination will have a far greater effect when job security issues are also at play.
answered 59 mins ago
Count IblisCount Iblis
2,29559
2,29559
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34
...there is no selection of students for the field of study at the university... Not really. A great many things happen in the 17 or so years prior to entering university that influences choice of major. It's disingenuous to pretend that "innate interest" is the only factor.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
12
So why did you say this fact "should be noted"?
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
21
That closes the loop. Please reread my first comment.
– Elizabeth Henning
6 hours ago
16
While the instructions to not look down on/patronize female students are correct, they are ... indirect accusations of sexism. Yes, exactly.
– Azor Ahai
5 hours ago
12
I don't really see a problem. It is a little prejudicial to single out the males for this (females can just as commonly think females are worse at STEM topics too). But we really would like more of them in STEM so whatever.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago