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Does the set of sets which are elements of every set exist?



Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar ManaraThe existence of the empty set is an axiom of ZFC or not?axiom of foundation of Zermelo–Fraenkel set theoryZF: Regularity axiom or axiom schema?There is no infinite sequence $x_1 ni x_2 ni x_3 ni …$Did Cohen need regularity?Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory and Hilbert's axioms for geometryTwo sets which contain each other as elementsHow does the axiom of regularity make sense?Axiom of regularity definitionSets that contain themselves in ZFC










5












$begingroup$


In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
$$
A = x mid forall y (x in y)
$$

I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
$$
B = x mid forall y (y in x) = emptyset
$$

with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • $begingroup$
    What do you mean by 'a set contained in' – is it 'a set being a subset of' or rather 'a set being an element of'...?
    $endgroup$
    – CiaPan
    41 mins ago















5












$begingroup$


In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
$$
A = x mid forall y (x in y)
$$

I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
$$
B = x mid forall y (y in x) = emptyset
$$

with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    What do you mean by 'a set contained in' – is it 'a set being a subset of' or rather 'a set being an element of'...?
    $endgroup$
    – CiaPan
    41 mins ago













5












5








5





$begingroup$


In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
$$
A = x mid forall y (x in y)
$$

I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
$$
B = x mid forall y (y in x) = emptyset
$$

with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




In Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory, does the following set exist?
$$
A = x mid forall y (x in y)
$$

I can see why a set contained in every set cannot exist (it would break the Axiom of Foundation/Regularity) but then would $A$ be empty or not exist at all? I am aware of the fact that:
$$
B = x mid forall y (y in x) = emptyset
$$

with the universal set not existing in ZF set theory. Is then $A$ empty for the same reason?







set-theory axioms






share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 6 hours ago







Jacob Arbib













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asked 6 hours ago









Jacob ArbibJacob Arbib

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285




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New contributor





Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Jacob Arbib is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











  • $begingroup$
    What do you mean by 'a set contained in' – is it 'a set being a subset of' or rather 'a set being an element of'...?
    $endgroup$
    – CiaPan
    41 mins ago
















  • $begingroup$
    What do you mean by 'a set contained in' – is it 'a set being a subset of' or rather 'a set being an element of'...?
    $endgroup$
    – CiaPan
    41 mins ago















$begingroup$
What do you mean by 'a set contained in' – is it 'a set being a subset of' or rather 'a set being an element of'...?
$endgroup$
– CiaPan
41 mins ago




$begingroup$
What do you mean by 'a set contained in' – is it 'a set being a subset of' or rather 'a set being an element of'...?
$endgroup$
– CiaPan
41 mins ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















10












$begingroup$

Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.



We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.




Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.



Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.



(OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)




Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmboxandquad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmboxandquadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$



This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.






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    1 Answer
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    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    10












    $begingroup$

    Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.



    We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.




    Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.



    Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
    if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.



    (OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)




    Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmboxandquad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmboxandquadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$



    This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$

















      10












      $begingroup$

      Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.



      We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.




      Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.



      Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
      if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.



      (OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)




      Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmboxandquad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmboxandquadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$



      This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$















        10












        10








        10





        $begingroup$

        Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.



        We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.




        Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.



        Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
        if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.



        (OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)




        Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmboxandquad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmboxandquadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$



        This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Yes, $A$ is just the emptyset.



        We don't even need to appeal to Foundation to show this: all we need is that the emptyset exists. To be in $A$, you would have to be in every set, so in particular you would have to be in the emptyset - but that's clearly impossible.




        Similarly, $B$ is just the emptyset (at least, in ZFC): to be in $B$ is to be a universal set, and (in ZFC) there aren't any of those.



        Note that this is a little more finicky than the analysis of $A$: there are set theories which do have a universal set, such as NF, and in such theories the class $B$ is not empty. In all the set theories I know, however, the class $B$ is a set (whether empty or not): in particular, as long as we have $(i)$ Extensionality, $(ii)$ Emptyset, and $(iii)$ Singletons, we're good (if there are no universal sets then $B$ is the empty class, which is a set by $(ii)$;
        if there is at least one universal set, then there is exactly one universal set by $(i)$ since any two universal sets have the same elements, and so $B$ is the class containing just that universal set, which is a set by $(iii)$), and these are fairly un-controversial axioms.



        (OK fine there are some interesting set theories without Extensionality; but still, in all the natural examples I'm aware of $B$ is a set.)




        Really, there's a slight abuse going on here: a priori $A$ and $B$ are just classes. What's really going on is that I have the formulas $$alpha(x)equiv forall y(xin y)quadmboxandquad beta(x)equivforall y(yin x)$$ defining the classes $A$ and $B$ respectively; I prove in ZFC that "each class is empty," that is, that $$forall x(negalpha(x))quadmboxandquadforall x(negbeta(x)).$$



        This now lets me prove "There is a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff alpha(x)$" - namely, take $U=emptyset$ - and similarly for $beta$. This is the "under-the-hood" version of proving that an expression in set-builder notation actually defines a set: we show that there is a set which is co-extensive with the defining formula of the class. In my opinion, this is an example of a situation where set-builder notation being used at the beginning makes things harder to follow: really, we should be asking (in the case of $A$) "Is there a set $U$ such that for all $x$ we have $xin Uiff forall y(xin y)$?" which clearly separates formulas/classes and sets.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited 6 hours ago

























        answered 6 hours ago









        Noah SchweberNoah Schweber

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